1. beanhead

    beanhead Well-Known Member

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    I'm starting to get thoughts together for a 440-505 build. When the time comes to select and get with a machinist/short block builder, they will direct from there but I learned a long time ago that it's best to at least have some kind of plan going in. Hot street car but I'm not looking for MAX power, 550-600 at the most as my car doesn't often see the strip but gets the piss driven out of it in every kind of mundane duty as well as 'hammer time'...so let's see if I'm heading in an okay direction!

    What's certain:
    '78 440 block--I've enlarged the main oil feeds, touched up the pickup feed passage and taken off as much casting flash and big ugly parting lines as was comfortable.
    4.25" crank/7.1 BBC rod kit
    27cc dish forged pistons
    (440 source kit, machinist will be aware of possible corrective work--or I get someone else lol!)
    Bore .030" (currently factory 4.320")
    Square and mill the decks for zero. Using
    standard .039" fel-pro gaskets for 10 to 1 compression. (May vary a tenth or two depending on the final CC of the heads).

    --Parts I'll be using that are currently in service:
    6 qt oil pan & 3/8 pickup.
    Edelbrock RPM heads, previously milled .030" but no porting.
    RPM intake or maybe throw on the Torker II I have laying around.
    850 Speed Demon carb, modded for adjustable everything.
    1-7/8 TTIs to 3" exhaust, ultra-flow mufflers.

    Yet to be determined:
    Solid FT cam. No rollers or hydraulics. I'll be consulting with the pros for the final product but your input is valued; again just to get an idea. I know that compared to hydraulics an equivalent solid FT should be 8° or so longer and account for lash on the lift. How much do you typically increase with the extra cubes? I currently run the XE275-HL and it's got a little bit of chop to the idle, but I could stand a tad more.
    Factory main caps/bolts still okay here? If not the extra machining will be figured in.
    1.5 rockers. Going to 1.6s could be an option. I've actually had real good results with Mancini's Harland Sharp units(properly set up).

    I don't see needing to rev to 6000, nor do I care, but I don't want a tractor motor either! With the heads not being ported I know there's some gonna get left on the table but is the goal still feasible? Peak at maybe 5500 or a tad less with a streetable cam? I can't have the heads done now but I at least want a solid thought-out bottom end that can easily support any future changes.
    Oh, '68 Satellite, 727 with 3.73 gears. Currently 28" tires and I will most definitely be getting a custom converter. With me and 1/2 tank it's right about 3650 lbs.
    I drive my car regularly, from quick trips to the hardware store, kids games and car shows to the 'occasional playfulness'. (Plenty of wide-open spaces nearby). Most cruising is from 2000(40 mph) to 2500(50 mph) give or take, and I'm perfectly fine doing closer to 3000 when I (very rarely) get on the freeway. Gonna experience plenty of traffic/slow streets and idling on hot days too, which is why I'm planning for the milder SCR. I want at least the power potential to get solidly in the 11s when I can make it down to Famoso dragstrip, without the conditions and chassis setup having to be 100% perfect, but not be a finicky PITA to drive for coffee...okay enough rambling already! Thanks everyone.
     
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    • Dajkzo

      Dajkzo FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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      Hi Bean,

      Sounds like a nice plan.I would opt for main studs. Maybe a Melling HV pump.

      Stay healthy out there on the west coast.
       
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      • BSB67

        BSB67 FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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        Sounds pretty good.

        You're compression ratio will probably be in the high 9s, which is fine. But if you can get get to 10.5, consider it.

        I like to run the paper gaskets on both sides of the intake valley pan gasket. Now would be the time to consider the milling of the intake surface of the head to accommodate the paper gaskets.

        Lunatic Voodo 272/280 or 280/288, depending on how you like your idle quality and low speed operation. Might not need to change the converter with the 272/280.
         
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        • dvw

          dvw Well-Known Member

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          Tough part here is the 3.23. Too loose a converter and itll be slipping all the time. Tighter converter means less cam. We run a std stroke 440 with Stock Eddy heads, 4.10 and a looser converter. True 10-1, but a lousy 2x4 low rise intake, shelf small tube headers. Cam is Mopar .557 solid. All in a stock 65 Belvedere. Itll go 11.40s anywhere. Has dipped into the 30s. My bet with extra cubes and 3.23 you might get away with this much cam and a tighter converter.
          Doug
           
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          • BSB67

            BSB67 FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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            In your decision making, also consider the effect of the recommended lash setting.

            Earlier you correctly pointed out that there is about a 10° "adjustment" when comparing hydraulic to solid camshaft. It's due to the lash.

            So in the case of the larger Lunati cam that I referenced above and comparing it to the 0.557 MP cam that Doug referenced, they look very similar on paper. However, the recommended lash for the MP's 0.557 is 0.028" verses the Lunati's 0.016". So, the Lunati cam's actual seat timing will be noticeably larger when set to the recommended lash, and will present like a bigger cam at idle and low rpm operation.

            Said differently, the 0.557 cam might look more like a 240° hydraulic, and the Lunati might look more like 244°.
             
            Last edited: Mar 15, 2020
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            • PRHeads

              PRHeads Well-Known Member

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              My take on the CR....... the gas in Ca is shit.
              For a mild streeter like that, the upside to pushing the CR is tiny.
              Keep it very very safe....... I’d be shooting for under 10:1, and good quench.

              I’d also keep the 1.5 rockers.
              Just less wear and tear, with a slight power reduction.

              Be careful what you wish for with regards to a more rowdy idle.
              A little rowdy can be fun....... too rowdy can just get old.
              Just keep in mind you’re not building a race car, and a cam change that’s worth maybe 15-20hp can greatly impact the street manners.
               
              Last edited: Mar 15, 2020
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              • Curiousyellow71

                Curiousyellow71 Well-Known Member

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                Manual brakes Bean?
                I like the 2 lunatis mentioned. We have a old 248/258@.050 crane we've been running for over 20 years now in our 510. It leaves power on the table and likes 1.6s or more rocker yet. It has wide lsa and we shift it at 6k. But you can drive it anywhere. Also just installed a bullet UD 282/290 255/263. .586/.598 in a 542. But, it's not in the car yet...Both cams have wide 112 lsa in 10.5:1 engines.
                 
                Last edited: Mar 15, 2020
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                • RPMagoo

                  RPMagoo Well-Known Member

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                  Had a 505, in this. Ran 11.60, as a, everyday, driver. -- Dart - 505.JPG Dart - Motor Plare.JPG
                   
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                  • beanhead

                    beanhead Well-Known Member

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                    Sorry Doug I think you mis-read, (or maybe just mis-typed) but my gears are 3.73s. I do get what you were saying though, which is another reason I plan to have a good converter shop handle the design to match my combo and use.

                    A friend ran that MP .557 in his 440 and, while it worked well for him, it's probably as aggressive as I'd want to be in the 505 at least for idle and street characteristics, for the current plan anyway. From what I'm understanding though it wouldn't act as "big" in the bigger engine. So maybe it's right in the neighborhood...

                    Man I haven't even called you yet and you're reading my mind already lol. Yes, I could creep the SCR up a half point or so with the smaller dish piston, but then to keep from being 10.75 or higher I'd need the fatter gasket, thus losing the tighter quench. I'd rather stay a nip under 9 and not have to worry, as the real issue with the gas here is it seems to be very inconsistent. Almost like they mix us a new formula every week, all special just for us:rolleyes: Anyways your advice is well considered regarding keeping it on the durable side, as I'm trying to stay honest about how this engine will be used 90% of the time. If I can do that and have it be a bruiser when called on, I'll be happy! 550hp or just north of that should be plenty.
                     
                    Last edited: Mar 15, 2020
                  • beanhead

                    beanhead Well-Known Member

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                    Oh yeah forgot to mention that, yes manual brakes. Nothing working off vacuum except the distributor advance, not even heater controls. (Don't need any steenking heaters!:D)
                    I'm also seeing a lot of preference for a wider LSA with the big-inch engines.
                     
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                    • beanhead

                      beanhead Well-Known Member

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                      Must be nice to have car that only weighs as much as a Harley!
                      :rofl::rofl:

                      Jokes aside, I wish I still had my '73 Swinger. That thing was getting ready to be a rocket, but someone put a whole $800 in my hand. (I'd only paid $200 back in 2003..)
                       
                    • PRHeads

                      PRHeads Well-Known Member

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                      You said the heads are cut .030, so they should be 78-79cc now.

                      With zero deck and the 27cc piston, .040 gasket....... that should work out perfect.
                      Just a tad under 10:1.

                      I have a customer in the Midwest that builds a lot of those just like that.
                      It’s a really good combo.
                       
                    • beanhead

                      beanhead Well-Known Member

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                      I'm figuring even if they need another swipe to get any gasket impressions smoothed out it won't take so much as to push the ratio up much. What does it take on average (currently on 8519 fel-pros) to get a nice flat surface again, 5-ish thousandths?
                       
                    • PRHeads

                      PRHeads Well-Known Member

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                      8519’s shouldn’t brinnel the heads, so in theory they wouldn’t need to be recut.

                      If they’re still flat, you should be able to have a fresh surface with only taking .002-.003 off.
                       
                    • beanhead

                      beanhead Well-Known Member

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                      Even better!:thumbsup:
                       
                    • dvw

                      dvw Well-Known Member

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                      For sure there's more modern stuff than the .557. But this car runs real well. Drives good also. The stroker should take car of the axle ratio difference.
                      Doug
                       
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                      • Curiousyellow71

                        Curiousyellow71 Well-Known Member

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                      • beanhead

                        beanhead Well-Known Member

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                      • beanhead

                        beanhead Well-Known Member

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                        Talking more on the subject of the 505/RB. How easy can these things make 600hp with unported heads (Edelbrock RPMs or 240s)? Or would any head need massaging? Now before you guys tar n' feather me...I'm just asking out of curiosity! I know it's not the best or most efficient way to reach that power level, but what kind of cam/induction/etc would it take, if it's possible?

                        download.jpeg
                         
                      • 67MPRFAN

                        67MPRFAN Well-Known Member

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                        With 505 Rb and trick flow heads 600hp well let's just say it's so easy a caveman can do it
                         
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