• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

Quench explained....

Cranky

Banned Henchman #27
Staff member
FBBO Gold Member
Local time
11:26 PM
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
Messages
34,340
Reaction score
42,565
Location
Pasadena, Texas
Of all the articles on quench that I've read, this one was probably the easiest to understand....just wasn't so dang technical as the others.


"What is the most, exact precisely defined occurrence in all piston engines? It isn’t ignition timing, combustion, crank indexing, or valve events. It is Top Dead Center. You can’t build an engine with an error at Top Dead Center because TDC is what everything else is measured from. Spark scatter, crank flex and cam timing can move, but TDC is when the piston is closest to the cylinder head in any one cylinder. The combustion process gets serious at Top Dead Center and about 12 degrees after TDC, most engines want to have maximum cylinder pressure. If maximum cylinder pressure occurs 10 degrees earlier or later, power goes away. Normal ignition timing is adjusted to achieve max cylinder pressure at 12 degrees after TDC. If your timing was set at 36 degrees before TDC that is a 48 degree head start on our 12 degree ATDC target. A lot of things can happen in 48 degrees and since different cylinders burn at different rates and don’t even burn at the same rate cycle to cycle, each cylinder would likely benefit from custom timing for each cylinder and each cycle. Special tailored timing is possible but there is an easier way—“Magnificent Quench”. Take a coffee can ½ full of gasoline burning with slow flicking flame. Strike the can with a baseball bat and you have what I would call a “fast burn”, much like what we want in the combustion chamber. The fast burn idea helps our performance engine by shortening the overall burn time and the amount of spark lead (negative torque) dialed in with the distributor. If you go from 36 degrees total to 32 degrees total and power increases, you either shortened the burn time or just had too much timing dialed-in in the first place. If you have really shortened the burn time, you won’t need so much burning going on before Top Dead Center. Now you can retard timing and increase HP. Did you ever have an engine that didn’t seem to care what timing it had? This is not the usual case with a fast burn combustion but an old style engine with big differences in optimum timing cylinder to cylinder will need 40 degrees of timing on some and others only need 26 degrees. If you set the distributor at 34 degrees, it is likely that 4 cylinders will want more timing and 4 cylinders will want less ( V-8). Moving the timing just changes, which cylinders are doing most of the work. Go too far and some cylinders may take a vacation. Now what does quench really do? First, it kicks the burning flame front across and around the cylinder at exactly TDC in all cylinders. Even with spark scatter, the big fire happens as the tight quench blasts the 32 degree old flame around the chamber. Just as with the coffee can, big flame or small flame, hit it with a baseball bat and they are all big instantly. The need for custom cylinder-to-cylinder timing gets minimized with a good quench. The more air activity in a cylinder you have the less ignition timing you are likely to need. When you add extra head gaskets to lower compression you usually lose enough quench that it is like striking the burning coffee can with a pencil. No fire ball here and that .070-.090 quench distance acts like a shock absorber for flame travel by slowing down any naturally occurring chamber activity. A slow burn means you need more timing and you will have more burn variation cycle-to-cycle and cylinder-to-cylinder, result more ping. Our step and step dish pistons are designed not only to maximize quench but to allow the flame to travel to the opposite side of the cylinder at TDC. The further the flame is driven, the faster the burn rate and the less timing is required. The step design also reduces the piston surface area and helps the piston top stay below 600 degree f (necessary to keep out of detonation). All of our forged pistons that are lower compression than a flat-top are step or step dish design. A nice thing about the step design is that it allows us to make a lighter piston. Our hypereutectic AMC, Buick, Chrysler, Ford, Oldsmobile and Pontiac all offer step designs. We cannot design a 302 Chevy step dish piston at 12:1 compression ratio but a lot of engines can use it to generate good pump gas compression ratio. Supercharging with a quench has always been difficult. A step dish is generally friendly to supercharging because you can have increased dish volume while maintaining a quench and cool top land temperatures. You may want to read our new design article for more information. ".

By John Erb
Chief Engineer
KB Performance Pistons
 
that was as easy to understand as hitting a coffee can with a baseball bat.:coffee::Whdatk:
 
Using a golf club works even better but you better be up wind when you do it! :D
 
Hummmm.....this guy writes......

"Now what does quench really do? First, it kicks the burning flame front across and around the cylinder at exactly TDC in all cylinders. Even with spark scatter, the big fire happens as the tight quench blasts the 32 degree old flame around the chamber."

Okay, sort of correct, but quench starts moving the mixture a lot sooner then TDC, and the "32 degree old flame" is only true depending on initial timing.

A better way to say it in very general terms is....Quench squeezes the mixture, causing turbulance in the combustion chamber which helps keep things cooler while forcing the flame front to a centralized point (where it actually starts to burn is timing dependent).

That is true without depending on a specific timing and ignores (as it should) the TDC reference.
 
The way I like to describe quench is this: If you drop a book on a flat surface the air under it tends to squeeze out and you can feel the "swoosh" when it happens. The "swoosh" of course would be the turbulence that helps mix the fuel vapor. Everything I've read on the quench subject says it promotes turbulence in the chamber to help cram as much fuel vapor toward the plug as possible, so when the flame front starts all the fuel can be consumed quickly and efficiently.

I'm sure none of us has a single cylinder laboratory test engine to prove or disprove anything written here but there are many excellent points in this article. Information is where you find it and everyone who is serious about building engines should read it. It's just another piece of the puzzle.
 
The way I like to describe quench is this: If you drop a book on a flat surface the air under it tends to squeeze out and you can feel the "swoosh" when it happens. The "swoosh" of course would be the turbulence that helps mix the fuel vapor. Everything I've read on the quench subject says it promotes turbulence in the chamber to help cram as much fuel vapor toward the plug as possible, so when the flame front starts all the fuel can be consumed quickly and efficiently.

I'm sure none of us has a single cylinder laboratory test engine to prove or disprove anything written here but there are many excellent points in this article. Information is where you find it and everyone who is serious about building engines should read it. It's just another piece of the puzzle.
Sounds like a good analysis to me Meep. The combustion chamber is the area where the valves and plugs are and the quench side of the head is supposed to do just that. Force the fuel/air mix over for the spark. It helps promote a faster burn which also helps reduce a second flame front from happening (which you hear as ping). This is why the engines of the 70's ran so poorly and pinged their butts off but the manufactures were trying to reduce emissions with NOx in particular and the way to help reduce that is to run cooler cylinder temps and lowered compression does that but then it makes for 'lazy' combustion and with pistons so far down in the hole, it increased the risk of ping. Another way to reduce cylinder temps (and reduce crankcase emissions) is to run an EGR system. Another thing that helps reduce NOx is a cold air intake duct. That also helps with performance a bit too.
 
Exactly right. Oxides of nitrogen (NOx) occurs when chamber temps get over 1400 deg F and the EGR system was a cheap way of cooling the chamber and preventing NOx - and so was low compression. What's sad is the American automakers went the cheap and sleazy route to deal with emissions rather than applying solid design principles to solve the problem. That's when the Japanese cars went from being a laughing stock to kicking our asses in technology in the 70's. Just think if all our favorite engines were treated to the same technology as the Jap stuff. We would be building SOHC aluminum head 318's and slant 6's - not to mention the HEMI and big block stuff.

So now we have some great stuff out there. The 4.7 SOHC in my 2002 Durango is fantastic! Just 25 yrs too late.
 
So what is the theory about the right amount of quench to use? I've heard of some builders getting as close as .020" (scary!), while others claim good results at as much as .045"

I imagine that combustion chamber shape, as well as piston top configuration, and compression all have an effect on quench clearance numbers, but how to determine what to use?
 
A lot depends on how much power you plan to make, rod type, how long the rods are, stroke, weight of the pistons and on and on. Power adders? You may not want to go with .020. Aluminum rods should have around .050....and I've had a hand in one stroker motor with .019! Short stroke motors can go with pretty type clearance but the general consensus is .040 and I plan to go with .025 with my next flat top 400 stock stroke motor. Need to take into consideration what your static compression will be and what cam you will use. If your compression is too high, you can always go with the reverse dome pistons but for the most part, flat tops have worked well for me. From what I've seen, the tighter they are, the better they seem to run but yeah, you can get too close lol
 
My definition of "quench" ... when I've been workin' on my car, it's givin' me fits, & I'm hot & sweaty - I go to the fridge & pop me a cold one.... AHH .. that's quench...
 
I have read that you can have too much turbulence in the chamber but what the exact effects are I can only guess would be a tendency to blow out the spark. I have always understood that high compression will want to blow out the spark and that's why you don't wide gap plugs in this application. Low CR smog engines can have .060" or more with the proverbial PG&E substation under the hood!

I'm sure the quench distance and the area of the surface works together to produce turbulence, not just the clearance. Yes, alum rod engines, or anything that might have a tendency to grow at high RPM should have more distance. I don't have my notes in front of me but I believe my stock rod 440 is at .035".
 
My definition of "quench" ... when I've been workin' on my car, it's givin' me fits, & I'm hot & sweaty - I go to the fridge & pop me a cold one.... AHH .. that's quench...


Now that's thinking out of the box!
 
My definition of "quench" ... when I've been workin' on my car, it's givin' me fits, & I'm hot & sweaty - I go to the fridge & pop me a cold one.... AHH .. that's quench...
Yeah, I always think of the same thing lol. I have a small fridge in my shop and with the temp turned down to around 1.5....the freezer makes em perfect!
 
I have read that you can have too much turbulence in the chamber but what the exact effects are I can only guess would be a tendency to blow out the spark. I have always understood that high compression will want to blow out the spark and that's why you don't wide gap plugs in this application. Low CR smog engines can have .060" or more with the proverbial PG&E substation under the hood!

I'm sure the quench distance and the area of the surface works together to produce turbulence, not just the clearance. Yes, alum rod engines, or anything that might have a tendency to grow at high RPM should have more distance. I don't have my notes in front of me but I believe my stock rod 440 is at .035".
Chamber and piston design and piston speed imo, would all have an effect.....
 
I would like to see this application in my real world. For example, I just discovered that my newly rebuilt 440 plus .030 unfired engine which was advertised as 9.5:1 using TRW forged pistons. I pulled a cylinder head to check everything because I saw a couple of small details I didn`t like.
When I pulled the unmodified 906 head and measured the flat top pistons [trw L2266] they are .075 down the hole. With my 90 cc combustion chambers and my .039 head gasket I have no where near any 40-50 thou quench.
So I start digging and find a Keith Black step piston set, forged, # IC 836, designed for open chamber heads. Real word question coming up.......is this piston set the cure and solution to my no quench problem? If I use these pistons, cc my heads and pick a head gasket to get the piston within .040-.050 will I be correct? Also, what rings should I use with these KB pistons for this street, pump gas set up? All help really appreciated, in fact, if John, former KB engineer, will clarify, I will celebrate. My parts order will be waiting on a complete answer.
 
KB makes a piston with a pop up dome to fill the "quench" side of an open chamber head but it's recommended you do a lot of careful checking to make sure that dome doesn't come too close to some of the features in the chamber. Maybe use clay to see how things fit. Changing pistons to the KB's will require you rebalance the engine. Use the moly rings if you have the correct bore finish. Also the top ring on the KB piston will need to be gapped pretty big compared to a factory replacement piston.
 
Meep Meep...that`s the thing, I am trying to determine if the KB piston pt# IC 836 is the correct piston for me. I realize that the piston is the first step and lots of clearance checking has to be done, I`m trying to get the first piece i.e. this particular KB piston pt number.
Also, I was hoping to get the new KB pistons balanced to my present rods, because the engine is already assembled. Do I have to get the crank, rods and new pistons to the machine shop, or is there a way around having to pull the crank out of my newly assembled engine?. Thanx again.
 
I'm not sure what IC836 is but this I believe is what you are looking for. http://www.kb-silvolite.com/kb_car/performance.php?action=details&P_id=29

Note the compression distance at 2.057". This will give you nearly zero deck if it were a flat top, but like it implies, the dome will protrude into the chamber ~ .075".

I am running KB 237's and they are flat tops with a 2.065" compression height. I'm also running 915 heads and a steel shim gasket.

If your shop has all the bob weight numbers and the new pistons are heavier than what you have now, they may be able to trim them to the same weight as the ones you took off. Otherwise you will have to remove metal from the crank counterweights. In my case there was a fair amount of metal removed from the crank so that indicates the pistons are lighter than stock.

The basic formula for calculating the bob weight is: Total weight of the big end (the end that is always spinning) plus half the weight of the small (or reciprocating) end. The idea is the reciprocating end is stationary half the time, thus is not part of the rotating mass.
 
Auto Transport Service
Back
Top