Want oversteer.

[j-c-c-62]

I always thought was for reducing body lean in turns, and aid in traction, no?

Hold that thought, anybody else?

 

[#41]

A sway bar effectively shares spring rates from L-R during the weight transfer of cornering.

To the OP: In general, if your car pushes you need less front spring rate or more rear spring weight. If your car is loose, you need less rear spring rate or more front spring rate. Tire size (stagger), tire pressure, alignment, sway bars, weight distribution, and chassis stiffness can also fine tune this.

 

[Jonas Nordstrom]

I'm not the only one with anaylisis paralysis

For sure, this winter is making me crazy....trying to improve the car in my mind.
Cant wait for the snow to go away.

 

[Rennkafer]

The very first thing I'd look at is alignment. These cars came with nearly no front negative camber (or positive camber), modern radial performance tires do not work well set up this way. Giving the car even 1-1.5 degrees negative camber can greatly increase front grip. This is what you really want. As J-C-C was trying to coyly allude to, a sway bar transfers load and reduces grip, which is why they induce more oversteer when put on the rear of a car that didn't have one. You always want to increase grip where you can, rather than reduce it.

If you want performance handling, you need a performance oriented alignment.

 

[j-c-c-62]

The very first thing I'd look at is alignment. These cars came with nearly no front negative camber (or positive camber), modern radial performance tires do not work well set up this way. Giving the car even 1-1.5 degrees negative camber can greatly increase front grip. This is what you really want. As J-C-C was trying to coyly allude to, a sway bar transfers load and reduces grip, which is why they induce more oversteer when put on the rear of a car that didn't have one. You always want to increase grip where you can, rather than reduce it.

If you want performance handling, you need a performance oriented alignment.

I read this IMO useful analogy years ago on camber. Imagine taking a pencil with an eraser and placing the eraser on a piece of glass at an angle. Now drag the pencil in the direction of the lean.
Next take the pencil with the eraser again on the glass with the same lean, and try pushing the pencil away.
Notice the difference?
I think that helps visualize the usefulness of camber.

 

[Kern Dog]

The very first thing I'd look at is alignment. These cars came with nearly no front negative camber (or positive camber), modern radial performance tires do not work well set up this way. Giving the car even 1-1.5 degrees negative camber can greatly increase front grip. This is what you really want. As J-C-C was trying to coyly allude to, a sway bar transfers load and reduces grip, which is why they induce more oversteer when put on the rear of a car that didn't have one. You always want to increase grip where you can, rather than reduce it.

If you want performance handling, you need a performance oriented alignment.

If body roll is excessive, the reduction in that by way of anti-sway bars is a streetable way to get there. Reduction in traction? You are confused. If a car responds better and is more controllable by using anti-sway bars, who is meticulous enough to dwell on reduced traction ?
Yeah, it does result in a transfer of energy from one side to the other which can keep the wheel on the rear axle from drooping if the other side is in compression as what happens with body roll. So what? The gain in driver control and confidence is the goal, why quibble with useless side effects that don't matter.

 

[Jonas Nordstrom]

The very first thing I'd look at is alignment. These cars came with nearly no front negative camber (or positive camber), modern radial performance tires do not work well set up this way. Giving the car even 1-1.5 degrees negative camber can greatly increase front grip. This is what you really want. As J-C-C was trying to coyly allude to, a sway bar transfers load and reduces grip, which is why they induce more oversteer when put on the rear of a car that didn't have one. You always want to increase grip where you can, rather than reduce it.

If you want performance handling, you need a performance oriented alignment.

Alignment and pos cam is no problem. I have the Hotchkis upper arms and got it aligned at a really good shop.

 

[j-c-c-62]

If body roll is excessive, the reduction in that by way of anti-sway bars is a streetable way to get there. Reduction in traction? You are confused. If a car responds better and is more controllable by using anti-sway bars, who is meticulous enough to dwell on reduced traction ? Me, but I am only speaking for myself. But regardless, this here is some informed progress on the topic.
Yeah, it does result in a transfer of energy from one side to the other which can keep the wheel on the rear axle from drooping if the other side is in compression as what happens with body roll. So what? (the drooping noted is countered by lifting that wheel, reducing that wheels grip btw)The gain in driver control and confidence is the goal, why quibble with useless side effects that don't matter. Then why don't we see 2"+ sway bars, and reduce all roll, because loss of traction decreases ultimate driver control, at least for me it does. All to mean, sway bars are partly a driver confidence builder, not a grip/traction improver, actually the opposite, and everyone is best served when best informed.

 

[Rennkafer]

who is meticulous enough to dwell on reduced traction ?

Anyone who wants their car set up for maximum cornering ought to. Increasing traction at the end that needs it (the front in the case of understeer), is ALWAYS preferable to decreasing traction at the end that already has it. This is basic performance car setup.

Body roll is irrelevant, it's a secondary effect. What sway bars are actually controlling is suspension geometry change. The better your initial geometry, the less you need them. Most 60's/70's cars have crap geometry, particularly for modern tires, so people put on giant bars and/or high rate springs to minimize suspension movement and hence geometry change. It may make the car faster, but not as fast as it could be. The real answer is correcting the geometry deficiencies, but most people aren't going to do that.

 

[Rennkafer]

Alignment and pos cam is no problem. I have the Hotchkis upper arms and got it aligned at a really good shop.

What specs did they align it to though?

 

[Kern Dog]

If you sticklers are so obsessed with the finer points, keep in mind that that stuff only applies to bucks UP competitive racing where dollars are won or lost on a few thousandths of a second.
99.9% of the enthusiasts drive these cars for fun and the ways that are often used serve that purpose. Your nit picking is pointless and stupid because it will never apply to the overwhelming majority of classic car owners. Nobody is driving a 68 Super Bee at 200 mph nor are they going to race at Laguna Seca. These are hobby cars. They want to have driver control and comfort. Anti-sway bars are the way to get there.
Your contributions have merit elsewhere, a dedicated racing forum maybe.

 

[j-c-c-62]

If you sticklers are so obsessed with the finer points, keep in mind that that stuff only applies to bucks UP competitive racing where dollars are won or lost on a few thousandths of a second.
99.9% of the enthusiasts drive these cars for fun and the ways that are often used serve that purpose. Your nit picking is pointless and stupid because it will never apply to the overwhelming majority of classic car owners. Nobody is driving a 68 Super Bee at 200 mph nor are they going to race at Laguna Seca. These are hobby cars. They want to have driver control and comfort. Anti-sway bars are the way to get there.
Your contributions have merit elsewhere, a dedicated racing forum maybe.

Dude, lighten up on the motivational claims you make about others.
Let the readers/owners here decide for themselves what their goals are and what is important. My only motivation here has been to be sure all aspects of their mods are based on well informed understandings of those mods. Here it has been with sway bars decreasing grip/traction, in order to gain other favorable handling aspects. That "cost" is hardly ever mentioned/considered when newcomer's first seek handling advice improvements. Calling other's you disagree with stupid, nit picking, pointless, etc makes one wonder who pee'd in your cereal.
Your suggestions of where this discussion should be found elsewhere is also odd when the "hobbists" here you mention are often led here to handling solutions that often include 11/16 TR's, LCA stiffening plates, using torque boxes AND subframe connectors together, etc speaking of "few thousands of a second".

 

[Rennkafer]

Your contributions have merit elsewhere, a dedicated racing forum maybe.

So, you're the FBBO content police now?

Having an actual understanding of how things work can be pretty useful for deciding exactly how far you want to take them. If you don't want to do those things that's fine, that's your choice.

I see you provide what you consider "useful" information all the time, and I appreciate it even when it's not useful to me. You don't, however, get to decide for anyone else what's useful information and what isn't.

Ever see the phrase "if you don't like it, keep scrolling"? It applies here...

 

[j-c-c-62]

Stumbled on this very laughable explanation on the AutoZone website, no wonder the topic has so much confusion/misinformation:​

​

WHY DO WE HAVE SWAY BARS?​

The most important reason to have a sway bar is for safety. It can be very dangerous if a vehicle is upended too much in a turn. Aside from the very obvious danger of a rollover, sway bars help keep the vehicle from sliding in turns. In this way, they prevent the wheels losing grip, which can cause a driver to skid. This can make the car harder to control, particularly when turning or braking.

However, sway bars can have problems as well, which is why they are not applied on all vehicles and not applied the same way on vehicles that do have them. A too-rigid sway bar is one of the more common sway bar link symptoms: it can cause the entire car to feel stiff when going over a bump. It also may increase the likelihood of a wheel becoming airborne if too stiff.

Stiffer sway bars are typically found on cars that are likely to encounter high turning forces on smooth roads. A good example of this would be a racing car or a powerful sports car like a Ford Mustang or a Dodge Charger. These cars have thicker rear and front sway bars, as it is assumed that these cars will be driven on smooth roads at high speeds. Therefore, a stiffer sway bar allows these vehicles to take tight corners with less danger of the car losing its grip on the asphalt and becoming airborne.

Red is incorrect
Blue is correct

 

[Kern Dog]

Nobody but you two care about those opinions.
You're comparable to a Hugo Boss or Tommy Hilfiger designer giving fashion advice to Carpenters and Mechanics for clothes to wear at work.
Feel free to post what you want but nobody will follow it, nobody will find it relevant.

 

[j-c-c-62]

Nobody but you two care about those opinions.
You're comparable to a Hugo Boss or Tommy Hilfiger designer giving fashion advice to Carpenters and Mechanics for clothes to wear at work.
Feel free to post what you want but nobody will follow it, nobody will find it relevant.

Don't make me cry.

 

[BB BELLA]

just play with tire pressures until it's real loose or just loose enough. works on pavement or dirt. won't cost you a thing.

 

[Rennkafer]

Nobody but you two care about those opinions.
You're comparable to a Hugo Boss or Tommy Hilfiger designer giving fashion advice to Carpenters and Mechanics for clothes to wear at work.
Feel free to post what you want but nobody will follow it, nobody will find it relevant.

Ah, the arbiter of all that is relevant too... yay.

Intelligent people will find it relevant because they want to know how the changes they might make actually work, or why they don't. The rest I don't care about.

 

[Kern Dog]

Trying to sell caviar where beef is what the market wants....BRILLIANT.

 

[Rennkafer]

Trying to sell caviar where beef is what the market wants....BRILLIANT.