What size Oil Restrictor

[2quick]

So I opened up the engine and checked the oil flow around the lifters, and even at full lift none of them are really getting a much oil coming out around the top or around the pushrod either at max lift or on the base circle, BUT there does seem to be a pretty good stream running out the bottom that really doesn't change much whether at lift or on the base circle. looks like it's pouring around the lifter onto the cam at a rate of maybe a 1/16 thick the entire circumference of the lifter (if that makes sense) but doesn't really change by moving the lifter up or down in the hole. I'm posting a video of the bottom of the lifter on the base circle because actually, it seems like it flows a bit more oil more there I can tell you that even with .060 restrictors oil is pouring down the side of the block first in the back then down the middle at a pretty good rate. let me know what you think.

 

[2quick]

And I think I found the noise.....

 

[2quick]

All the intake pushrods hitting

 

[PRHeads]

As for the oil flow out from under the lifters...... yeh, that’s pretty bad.
As well as how much is running down from the heads.
How many of the lifters gush oil like that?
Just imagine how bad it is when the oil is hot and it thinned out.

The pushrods rubbing there...... “normal”(not good, but it is pretty normal if they’re not clearanced)........ that’s why I always clearance them.

There is likely some binding when the pushrod is trying to seat in the rocker adjuster, and you’re getting a false lash reading.
You’re setting it right, but the pushrod likely isn’t fully seated in the adjuster, so there is actually vertical clearance on the pushrod side of the rocker.
The good news is...... after clearancing it should get quieter.

I think you’re going to need different lifters.

Know anyone near you with a pair of Comp 829’s you can use for test pieces to see if they semi-cure that problem?

 

[1967coronet440]

Sorry this happened to you, but man is this a great tech thread. TONS of info here

 

[2quick]

Funny thing is I just sold a set about 2 months ago. I didn't want needle bearing rollers so I went with the Crower and took out the comp rollers. What lifter do you recommend without needle bearings that would be comparable in strength to a Eduramax or Isky Redzone that would work? I wish I had a video of what it's supposed to look like. Still wondering if I can get away with just restricting the heads more? Oh and they all look pretty even in flow but just out the bottom.

 

[Challenger340]

So I opened up the engine and checked the oil flow around the lifters, and even at full lift none of them are really getting a much oil coming out around the top or around the pushrod either at max lift or on the base circle, BUT there does seem to be a pretty good stream running out the bottom that really doesn't change much whether at lift or on the base circle. looks like it's pouring around the lifter onto the cam at a rate of maybe a 1/16 thick the entire circumference of the lifter (if that makes sense) but doesn't really change by moving the lifter up or down in the hole. I'm posting a video of the bottom of the lifter on the base circle because actually, it seems like it flows a bit more oil more there I can tell you that even with .060 restrictors oil is pouring down the side of the block first in the back then down the middle at a pretty good rate. let me know what you think.

THAT is EXACTLY the problem we have experienced in the past with those Lifters..... and that I was referring to back on Page 1, Post #6 ?
and remember here....
you were "testing" with a COLD Engine and COLD OIL !
Just IMAGINE at operating Oil temps ?

The Oil just "Floods" out the bottom.... and as close as we could figure during further testing years ago, was that at 180*F Oil Temp on LUCAS 20W-50 using .0015" Lifter to Bore Clearance..... we were losing 25 psi at 1,100 rpm Idle !
I forget the exact details....
but we later started "Bushing" the Lifter Bores when using those Lifters.... but in a few cases prior to switching to "bushing" as std practice, even just swapping back to a 7-11 CompCam Lifters as a test we IMMEDIATELY jumped 25 psi Oil Pressure @ 1,100 rpm, but obviously less psi gain @ higher rpm's(maybe only 5 psi by 6,500 rpm.)

 

[Challenger340]

Funny thing is I just sold a set about 2 months ago. I didn't want needle bearing rollers so I went with the Crower and took out the comp rollers. What lifter do you recommend without needle bearings that would be comparable in strength to a Eduramax or Isky Redzone that would work? I wish I had a video of what it's supposed to look like. Still wondering if I can get away with just restricting the heads more? Oh and they all look pretty even in flow but just out the bottom.

Back on Page 1 Post #2 ?
I had said.... We always found .040" to .050" is LOTS !

In our experience only with the 440-1 Heads.... and we were INDY Dealers many years too long...
the .040" being fine for race efforts, closer to .050" for Street Driven.

And remember here....
the MORE you restrict the Flow in the Lines feeding the Heads ?
the MORE those HIPPO Lifters will piss out the bottom of the Lifter Bores, but not necessarily MORE to the Bearings ?(Dunno what Brg Clrcs you have ?), because Oil Flow takes the path to the biggest leak ?
In a perfect world we'd like to believe restricting the Heads feeds more Oil/Pressure to the Brgs, "pressure is PRESSURE right ? but that's NOT always the case if there is a bigger "leak" elsewhere for the Oil/Pressure to pursue ?
Just saying here....
Bearings only cool from the Heat generated by "rpm and loads".... by the Flow of cool lubricating Oil IN.... and then out allowing more IN....

 

[PRHeads]

Funny thing is I just sold a set about 2 months ago. I didn't want needle bearing rollers so I went with the Crower and took out the comp rollers. What lifter do you recommend without needle bearings that would be comparable in strength to a Eduramax or Isky Redzone that would work? I wish I had a video of what it's supposed to look like. Still wondering if I can get away with just restricting the heads more? Oh and they all look pretty even in flow but just out the bottom.

With a Comp 829, in a hole that’s not a big problem, the oil just barely oozes out from the bottom, and even then, only at higher lifts.

I haven’t put them in a motor myself and done the test, so I can’t say for sure...... but I have a few customers running the Comp bushed sportsman lifters(BB Mopar 96829B-16)with regular stock type oil systems, not having low oil pressure problems.
Despite what the catalog says, that part number doesn’t have pushrod oiling.

How they would compare in your block, I can’t say.

But, all that oil gushing out of those lifter bores and running down out of the heads....... is oil that:
A- isn’t going to the main and rod bearings, and
B- is running down all over your crank creating a bunch of power robbing windage issues.
C-even if you had adequate pressure, you now know there is a ton of oil going where it shouldn’t be.

If it were at my shop, all three issues would be resolved before it went back together:
-better(much better) control of the oil bleeding out around the lifters
-clearance the heads for the pushrods
-do what is necessary to attain side clearance for each pair of rockers

Did you happen to run the priming tool without the pushrods to see how much oil was coming through the lifter body?
Maybe not much is coming out the top because the path of least resistance is out the bottom.

Btw, you should send that video to Crower and see what their response is.

FWIW, my experience in my own motor in a stock unbushed 440 block, .434 lobe lift cam, a cheap set of Herbert roller lifters, stock type oiling/hv pump, with HS rockers and 906 heads.......... 85psi going down the track, 35-40psi hot idle, 20/50 oil.

 

[Challenger340]

Btw, you should send that video to Crower and see what their response is.

.

Dwayne,
I can tell you for sure, they have indeed seen this VIDEO... or one strangely just like it ? and more than a few times over the years !
I believe their response beyond "first we ever heard of it".... which has been their same response for 5-6 years anyway ?... will be that their actions speak louder than words.....
they still SELL .... the SAME Lifter.... with the SAME problem ?


Reference AndyF's Post #29

 

[PRHeads]

Bob, sending the video is more of an acknowledgement to Crower that you know they’re full of ****.

IMO, those lifters in the video are “absolutely, positively” not suitable for use in an unbushed factory BB Mopar block.

”first we ever heard of it”

I think they must teach that line at “Tech Line” school....... I’ve heard it many many times.

 

[Challenger340]

Bob, sending the video is more of an acknowledgement to Crower that you know they’re full of ****.

IMO, those lifters in the video are “absolutely, positively” not suitable for use in an unbushed factory BB Mopar block.



I think they must teach that line at “Tech Line” school....... I’ve heard it many many times.

I dunno how to say this Dwayne ?
They already know... that I/we already know.... and anybody I/we've spoken with here at our Shop over gotta be 6 years now knows.... they they are full of **** !
and....
why waaaaay back in this thread on page # 1 in Post #6 I had tried to offer imput regarding this thread about an Oil Pressure LOSS problem that just happens to be using CROWER Lifters ?
QUOTE:
"We've experienced problems with the CROWER edm trunion feeds literally DUMPING a ton of Oil OUT and AROUND the bottom of the Lifter Body as opposed to anywhere else it's intended to go ?

just say'in here...
4 pages and 71 posts later ?

 

[PRHeads]

You nailed it for sure.
Like I said...... I’ve never used them.

One look at the way the oil holes were, and I would have expected a problem, so I would have gone in another direction.

But, along the lines of your thoughts, I was pretty sure that priming with the valley cover opened up would have answered any questions.
And for me at least....... it did.

On the plus side....... I think this will open up some people’s eyes that:
A- just cuz the manufacturer says it’ll work, doesn’t guarantee it will, and
B- you can easily create some headaches for yourself by installing a solid roller cam in a stock 440 block with unbushed lifter bores if you don’t do your homework on what will and what won’t actually work.

 

[2quick]

Thanks guy for all your help! I was in denial about the lifters being the problem, mostly due to the fact that I spent so much money on them and thought for sure I was doing the right thing. Well you open my eyes for sure and now I’m researching a new set of lifters. I know Dwayne already recommended the Comp Sportsman series lifter but are there any other Brands/Type of higher end roller lifters you guys would recommend just to compare. I need to order a set on Monday. Weather is getting warmer he in Jersey and I need this running.

 

[1967coronet440]

My builder was very happy with the BAM lifters, look like very nice pieces but can’t speak to how they work. See if the pros here have anything to say about them.

 

[PRHeads]

Here’s a couple of questions for Bob......

Do you have an idea about how big the EDM holes in those Crower lifters are that feed the bushings?

Is there only one hole, or one on each side?

Looking at the pics of the lifters a bit more....... it seems like if the problem isn’t the wheel opening being exposed to the gallery at high lift that’s causing the problem(which apparently it isn’t since oil seems to be flowing pretty good at any lifter position)...... is all that oil flowing out the bottom coming from the feed holes to the bushings?
The more I look at those lifters, the more puzzling it seems that there’s so much oil flowing out the bottom with the lifter down near the base circle.

For comparison, BAM BB Mopar lifter on the right:
(Looks pretty similar to the Crower)

 

[PRHeads]

I just checked a Comp 87019 lifter, and the bearing feed hole is what I would consider as being “huge” for the application...... it’s .028”

These came out of a 572 I built about 10 years ago using an aluminum World block with bushed lifters........ and I don’t recall seeing anything alarming flowing from below the lifters when I primed it.

 

[2quick]

I'm going to order a set of (BB Mopar 96829B-16 Comp Sportsman lifters) an see what happens. I'll order them form summit and try one set in a hole and check for oil coming out the bottom. If they don't work I'll return them. If they do I'll run them.

 

[PRHeads]

I’d like to see a follow up video of the two different lifters in the same hole, if you get a chance.

From an oil control standpoint, it’s going to be hard to beat the 829-16’s, since they have no holes and no band.
The only leakage you get from those of from whatever the lifter to bore clearance is......... except sometimes when how the oil gallery intersects with the lifter bore, you can get some oil flow out of the bottom(similar to what you were seeing from the Crowers) when you get the lifter up near full lift.
It’s usually not all the lifter bores, and it’s not for a lot of duration/time during the lift cycle.

 

[PRHeads]

Any updates?