Difference in intakes

[Mark1972]

Hey all. Slowly piecing together stuff for my 440 swap this summer. Now that I've got my headers, I'm looking at intake and carb. I've got the original intake and Thermoquad off the engine, which is a 1977 440 lean burn. My question is on the intake right now. There is a 1969 440 cast intake on sale near me for $125Can, or I can use the original. Both would need a blasting and painting. Is there a big difference between these intakes? The engine will make 375-400hp, and be purely street driven. Obviously I'd like to save money where I can. As far as the carb, there is a fella locally that rebuilds the Thermo's, but I've been told the lean burn carb shouldn't be bothered with.

 

[VANDAN]

If you're not going for originality, why not use a newer Edelbrock, and matching carb ? It will probably wake your engine up some, seeing you are using headers also. We did that on our 340, using a Quick-Fuel carb, and couldn't be happier with it....

 

[68Moparmaniac]

I agree with VANDAN, unless your catering to OEM gold build I agree with the Edelbrock package choice. First and foremost, ditching that 45 pound OEM intake you'll save weight which we all know is a good thing. As I mentioned in another thread, the Edelbrock carbs are a piece of cake to work with. You could probably get the carb and manifold package for the price of one of these carbs.

Are there better carbs out there? Absolutely. All in all bang for the buck I would opt out for the Edelbrock package and call it good...IMO

 

[BSB67]

Hey all. Slowly piecing together stuff for my 440 swap this summer. Now that I've got my headers, I'm looking at intake and carb. I've got the original intake and Thermoquad off the engine, which is a 1977 440 lean burn. My question is on the intake right now. There is a 1969 440 cast intake on sale near me for $125Can, or I can use the original. Both would need a blasting and painting. Is there a big difference between these intakes? The engine will make 375-400hp, and be purely street driven. Obviously I'd like to save money where I can. As far as the carb, there is a fella locally that rebuilds the Thermo's, but I've been told the lean burn carb shouldn't be bothered with.

If you have a spreadbore intake and a TQ or other spreadbore carb is an option for you, that intake will work pretty good and support the power you're looking for. Said differently, I would not go from a spreadbore intake/TQ carb to a square bore factory intake and carb.

As others have state, aftermarket aluminum would be a little better yet.

 

[RJRENTON]

IMO...
IF you're looking for originality, use the cast Iron manifold, blasted and painted of course, AND the matching Carter AVS carb, fuel line, air cleaner assembly.
There is nothing wrong with the Edlebrock (aka "Eddy") stuff, once its calibrated to your application, its just depends on what you want, need and can afford. For my tastes, I prefer the original stuff. Just my opinion of course.
BOB RENTON

 

[69sunfireGTX]

I've got the original intake and Thermoquad off the engine, which is a 1977 440 lean burn. My question is on the intake right now. The engine will make 375-400hp, and be purely street driven.

If you have an original 1977 440 you will not be making 375-400hp. Even if you did some engine work you would most likely not be making the horsepower that you are looking to make using the Thermoquad off the 1977 engine

 

[Mark1972]

I kind of figured the TQ from the original engine was not going to be the same carb to go on the newly rebuilt engine. So the question would be, what would be a good carb for this motor? The engine builder is a big fan of the Holley because he knows how to set them up. A local Mopar guy believes Holley is junk, and should all be thrown in the trash. For him, it's Carter or nothing. I believe there is an affordable option somewhere in between. I'm not ready to throw big money at a brand new carb, and there will be an affordable used option that will work well with the original intake, which I've decided to use.

 

[rumblefish360]

@Mark1972

The leanburn TQ can be modified to work with what you have but even though I like these carbs a lot, I do t suggest this move unless you know a TQ freak in your area. A ‘72 and newer TQ is what you would be after. Earlier the better but not the ‘71 model. Truck TQ’s are also good since they lack stuff the smog carbs have.

Im also not really a fan of a aftermarket carb on stock intakes. They do not perform as well as they could when coupled with a better intake.

IF you grabbed a Edelbrock Performer intake, then I would OK with that and a earlier TQ or an older squarebore intake, a Edelbrock or Weiand or even the factory iron unit with a 750 carb (your choice) on top.

Also, if your looking to look stock, that’s one thing but if not, grab some aluminum and sell the iron to ether a resto guy or the scrap pile. The late year smog TQ intake is basically worthless. It can perform just fine within it’s parameters, stock to a mini cam upgrade, FWIW.

 

[RJRENTON]

As I mentioned previously, your origional manifold and TQ carb are emission components, with EGR passages and EGR valve. IF it were I, I'd use the '69 manifold and an origional Carter AVS carb (available on eBay or the web) for that engine combo. The Edlebrock (aka "eddys") components are good and readily available. A Holley carb around 600-750 CFM range with vacuum secondaries would be a good choice ad well. The 1970 model year 440 and some 383 engines used vacuum secondary Holley as standard equipment around 750 CFM. Perhaps you could consider this approach. The more people you ask, the more info you'll get....right or wrong. What DO YOU WANT or can afford?......Just my opinion of course.
BOB RENTON

 

[BSB67]

I would gladly challenge anyone and their 69 AVS & factory manifold to a later model TQ & manifold.

 

[RJRENTON]

I would gladly challenge anyone and their 69 AVS & factory manifold to a later model TQ & manifold.

Out of curiosity, in what way would you compare.....horsepower developed or torque produced or max RPM achieved, or mixture velocity and distribution uniformity, or emissions...total CO, HC NOx, or cold start drivability, or hot restart after a hot soak, or overall MPG. OR what were your suggested measuring criteria. Any specific model of carb preferred or individual comparison items receiving a higher priority or the universal "seat of the pants measurement and methodology" way? It all depends on what the OP wants to achieve or can afford.
BOB RENTON

 

[BSB67]

Get your stuff all set up. I'll meet you at the track, where I do my testing, and swap in my intake and TQ. I'm all set up and ready to go including fuel line and air cleaner. Its been like this for almost 30 years, and has been on several cars. Everything else is just babble. Stockish cars in the 350 to 425 HP range.

 

[rumblefish360]

Out of curiosity, in what way would you compare.....horsepower developed or torque produced or max RPM achieved, or mixture velocity and distribution uniformity, or emissions...total CO, HC NOx, or cold start drivability, or hot restart after a hot soak, or overall MPG. OR what were your suggested measuring criteria. Any specific model of carb preferred or individual comparison items receiving a higher priority or the universal "seat of the pants measurement and methodology" way? It all depends on what the OP wants to achieve or can afford.
BOB RENTON

Oh heck, I could do all the above and win.
Minus distribution and uniformity.
But then again, a square bore carb and intake do not Guarantee a better result because inside the intake it is chaos. Just less chaos that is spread bore.

 

[RJRENTON]

Get your stuff all set up. I'll meet you at the track, where I do my testing, and swap in my intake and TQ. I'm all set up and ready to go including fuel line and air cleaner. Its been like this for almost 30 years, and has been on several cars. Everything else is just babble. Stockish cars in the 350 to 425 HP range.

All well and good....but you did not answer my origional question....perhaps it's because you do not understand the question? To which of the distinct comparison points were you refering? Emissions or HP/ Torque or maybe 1/4 mile elapsed time or ??? "the same for 30 years".... same cam, pistons, bore/stroke, compression ratio, trans, rear gear?.....too many variables to not have changed in the time period. Its somewhat like trying to define how high is up or "why is there air." Referring to your quote: ..."everything is just babble"....only to the uninformed or uneducated. Perhaps, the next time I'm in Pa. with the car, we can explore the premise on a chassis dynamometer or 1/4 mile contest?

 

[Mark1972]

Hey all. Thanks as always for the info and advice. I just finished a deal on a 1970 intake and rebuilt 1970 AVS carb. He's a Mopar restorer and will rebuild and set up the carb once it's on my car, so that piece of the puzzle is out of the way now. On to the other pieces yet to be resolved, lol.

 

[RJRENTON]

Oh heck, I could do all the above and win.
Minus distribution and uniformity.
But then again, a square bore carb and intake do not Guarantee a better result because inside the intake it is chaos. Just less chaos that is spread bore.

Chaos....?? Perhaps you mean the difference between turbulent flow or laminar flow...it depends of the specific Reynolds number and velocity in terms of ft/srcond, density of the mixture or perhaps the corresponding DFL factor....?
BOB RENTON

 

[rumblefish360]

Put a camera in the intake, or actuall looking into the intake under the carb, like looking through a window into the plenum. Then you’ll get what I’m saying. What he the fuel. How it is traveling. Make note of the RPM levels as it spins up. It is chaos.

Chaos....?? Perhaps you mean the difference between turbulent flow or laminar flow...it depends of the specific Reynolds number and velocity in terms of ft/srcond, density of the mixture or perhaps the corresponding DFL factor....?
BOB RENTON

 

[RJRENTON]

Put a camera in the intake, or actuall looking into the intake under the carb, like looking through a window into the plenum. Then you’ll get what I’m saying. What he the fuel. How it is traveling. Make note of the RPM levels as it spins up. It is chaos.

Obviously, you have never heard of the concept of laminar flow vs turbulent flow as defined by Crane's Flow of Fliids. There is no definition for "chaos" listed in Crane treatise. Looking elsewhere, a better definition of chaos is: Chaos theory is a part of mathematics. It looks at certain systems that are very sensitive. A very small change may make the system behave completely differently. ... Some systems (like weather) might appear random at first look, but chaos theory says that these kinds of systems or patterns may not be chaotic. To further refine the chaos concept: Specifically, chaos theory suggests that the behavior of complex systems can follow laws and yet their future states remain, in principle at least, unpredictable. The behavior of complex systems is exquisitely sensitive to conditions, so that small changes at the start, can result in ever larger changes over time, with time being relative, with regard to now or present time. Perhaps this is what you meant to say. By putting a camera inside the manifold, you would disturb the unpredictability factor and therefore make it predictable, resulting in a lack of chaos. Just ask your next door's neighbor's brother-in-law's cousin's best buddy's friend's sister's husband for his thoughts ....I'm sure he understands absolutely.

 

[rumblefish360]

Obviously, you have never heard of the concept of laminar flow vs turbulent flow as defined by Crane's Flow of Fliids. There is no definition for "chaos" listed in Crane treatise. Looking elsewhere, a better definition of chaos is: Chaos theory is a part of mathematics. It looks at certain systems that are very sensitive. A very small change may make the system behave completely differently. ... Some systems (like weather) might appear random at first look, but chaos theory says that these kinds of systems or patterns may not be chaotic. To further refine the chaos concept: Specifically, chaos theory suggests that the behavior of complex systems can follow laws and yet their future states remain, in principle at least, unpredictable. The behavior of complex systems is exquisitely sensitive to conditions, so that small changes at the start, can result in ever larger changes over time, with time being relative, with regard to now or present time. Perhaps this is what you meant to say. By putting a camera inside the manifold, you would disturb the unpredictability factor and therefore make it predictable, resulting in a lack of chaos. Just ask your next door's neighbor's brother-in-law's cousin's best buddy's friend's sister's husband for his thoughts ....I'm sure he understands absolutely.

WOW! LMAO!

Over all, what a rude posts and an excellent attempted cover up for your lack of knowledge of what goes on inside the intake manifolds plenum coupled with very loose comparative mentions of other systems that do not apply but yet get associated with a topic at hand.

You use the word obviously. It actually applies to yourself with proof of it in your post of the utter ridiculousness within it.

Just for clarification, which I thought I did, the camera to view what happens within the intake manifolds plenum is not inside the plenum itself but placed outside of the plenum looking through a window to view what happens within. Obviously! If you had ever seen this, you wouldn’t have replied.

Have fun with your reply, I don’t think I’ll bother with you.
You really are a piece of work sometimes.

 

[BSB67]

........perhaps it's because you do not understand the question?

Funny. I do understand your question, its just irrelevant.

Obviously, you have never heard of the concept of laminar flow vs turbulent flow as defined by Crane's Flow of Fliids......Just ask your next door's neighbor's brother-in-law's cousin's best buddy's friend's sister's husband for his thoughts ....I'm sure he understands absolutely.

Also funny coming from the guy that references Boyle's law (an ideal gas law) in explaining an oil pumping system. Given a choice between you and the neighbor guy, I'd probably go with the guy that's babbling the least over his head.....probably the neighbor guy.