440 rebuild difficulty 1-10

[kaj750]

The first start of problems are aftermarket parts. Does it really fit? They will need careful examination. The second are you changing factory parameters? Lets say a larger cam. What changes? The valve is open longer, further, and faster. What does this impact? Weight of valve train vs spring pressure. Does the retainer clear the seal and guide boss? Does the valve clear the piston. Are the springs strong enough to control the motion? Are the valves, keepers, locks up to the task of the added spring pressure? Do the stronger springs fit the retainer, head, and guide properly? Are the pushrods strong enough? Which rockers fit? Is the valvetrain geometry close enough? Or does it need to be modified? This is just one of many examples. These engines are close to 50 years old. Stuff wears out that was never envisioned years earlier. Threads in the castings, lifter bores wear, water jacket corosion, core shift, cracks. Why is my current race motor better? It has really good parts and machining. The combo of parts work very well together. .9mm thin rings with round straight high end hone job, precision valve job, high end porting and chamber work, bushed lifter bores, better internal oil control. It doesn't have the most expensive parts. But it does have pretty high end internals. I could have never afforded this stuff when I was younger. Currently 580" Mopar mega block, Indy -1 w/.225" Ferrea valves, T&D paired shaft rockers, Trend 7/16"x.165" pushrods,15.1-1, 285/296@.050", .830"/.800", Molnar crank and rods, Jessel belt drive, custom aluminum pan w/swing, swing trap doors & pick up , external oil feed Indy pump, GZ vacuum pump, crank scraper, Indy 440-25 cross ram, 2 1100 Lightening racing custom built Holleys. This engine bought today would probably cost $25-30K. This is a far cry from my first 440 that didnt get honed. Just new rings and a .030"/.030" crank and bearings, and a nice valve job, and a Gratiot Auto Supply cam that wasn't degreeded and used the factory valve springs. It also featured stock A body 383 manifolds and pipes. And an iron 6 pac manifold with 3 unknown Holleys with accelerator pumps instead of vacuum linkage.
Doug

I'm taking a running engine apart, looking for obvious defects and checking a few things, then putting it back together again with the new heads. So, at least I know everything works together. In all honesty, if I had to worry about all the stuff above, I probably wouldn't bother and just ship it off to someone LOL
Mostly I want to know exactly what's going on with the engine so that I can better diagnose issues down the road. I.E. with my current issue: People keep asking if I'm sure the cam was degreed in properly and/or the timing chain etc was installed correctly. No. No I'm not. I have no idea. LOL but also

 

[451Mopar]

These old engines are actually very simple. The issues are that most likely someone has likely messed with the engine before, or bolted on different parts without checking all the fitment. You used to be able to get OEM parts to just bolt on, sort of like newer engines, but now most parts are aftermarket and often need to be closely inspected and fitted to the engine to make sure they work correctly.
The other issue is the old 1960's through 1970's engines were built for leaded fuels, and hi-zddp oils. So many rebuilds include hardened exhaust valve seats, or just bolt on newer aftermarket heads that flow better and are lighter weight. Modern fuels seem to vaporize easy where the exhaust heat crossover really is no longer needed and can make the carb too hot vaporizing the fuel in the fuel bowls. Because of the change in oil, some opt for a roller tappet valve train or running "Hot Rod" oils with higher ZDDP for the old flat tappet lifter cams.
The other aspect is mis/mash of aftermarket parts that all need to be inspected, fitted and made sure they all work together.
This is one of the differences between "building" and engine and "assembling" an engine.

 

[kaj750]

These old engines are actually very simple. The issues are that most likely someone has likely messed with the engine before, or bolted on different parts without checking all the fitment. You used to be able to get OEM parts to just bolt on, sort of like newer engines, but now most parts are aftermarket and often need to be closely inspected and fitted to the engine to make sure they work correctly.
The other issue is the old 1960's through 1970's engines were built for leaded fuels, and hi-zddp oils. So many rebuilds include hardened exhaust valve seats, or just bolt on newer aftermarket heads that flow better and are lighter weight. Modern fuels seem to vaporize easy where the exhaust heat crossover really is no longer needed and can make the carb too hot vaporizing the fuel in the fuel bowls. Because of the change in oil, some opt for a roller tappet valve train or running "Hot Rod" oils with higher ZDDP for the old flat tappet lifter cams.
The other aspect is mis/mash of aftermarket parts that all need to be inspected, fitted and made sure they all work together.
This is one of the differences between "building" and engine and "assembling" an engine.

I'm torn between keeping the flat tappet and doing roller. I'm pretty sure all the extra zinc in my oil isn't the greatest for my wideband sensor. I like keeping things as OEM for simplicity but also know that I may need to make some changes for longevity.

 

[dvw]

I'm taking a running engine apart, looking for obvious defects and checking a few things, then putting it back together again with the new heads. I want to know exactly what's going on with the engine so that I can better diagnose issues down the road. I.E. with my current issue: People keep asking if I'm sure the cam was degreed in properly and/or the timing chain etc was installed correctly. No. No I'm not. I have no idea. LOL but also

So if I may ask what is your current issue?

I'm torn between keeping the flat tappet and doing roller. I'm pretty sure all the extra zinc in my oil isn't the greatest for my wideband sensor. I like keeping things as OEM for simplicity but also know that I may need to make some changes for longevity.

Now possibly a cam change? At that point will it be degreed? So now what tools do you have? Mics, degree wheel, good torque wrench, dial Indicator? Don’t get me wrong. Not saying this can’t be done. But you need to know what you are getting into. Seen way to many builds that something was missing and it was a costly and time consuming mistake.
Doug

 

[kaj750]

So if I may ask what is your current issue?

Now possibly a can change? At that point will it be degreed? So now what tools do you have? Mics, degree wheel, good torque wrench, dial Indicator? Don’t get me wrong. Not saying this can’t be done. But you need to know what you are getting into. Seen way to many builds that something was missing and it was a costly and time consuming mistake.
Doug

Current issue is a long story. Short version: crazy detonation under load, especially with higher IATs. I'm slowly tuning it out, best I can. Super frustrating.

If I decide to swap to a roller setup, that would be much more involved and not sure it's something I'd feel like learning. So it's a simple R&R or have a shop do a roller setup.

 

[GASSR]

Me with my first 440 ... built it in 1982. It turned out to be a great street strip motor! Used the Direct Connection bible and other books to guide me.

 

[Bighouse]

Current issue is a long story. Short version: crazy detonation under load, especially with higher IATs. I'm slowly tuning it out, best I can. Super frustrating.

If I decide to swap to a roller setup, that would be much more involved and not sure it's something I'd feel like learning. So it's a simple R&R or have a shop do a roller setup.

Did you try colder spark plugs first?

 

[Don selleck]

I'm doing my first engine also, a small block 340 stroked to a 416. Went with roller cam and rockers, just for the flat tappet cam issues people are having mainly with the oil. Seems like a simple solution but an expensive one. Waiting on a cam grind from Howards, a 10 week wait. should be here before Christmas, I'm hoping. have a neighbor that has experience building small block Mopars, so should be good. Being thorough is my plan and just double and triple check everything, alot of $$$ into this build. You should be good, lots of good advice on this site, I just learned a few things reading this thread. Good luck.

 

[t.flatt]

I'm taking a running engine apart, looking for obvious defects and checking a few things, then putting it back together again with the new heads. So, at least I know everything works together. In all honesty, if I had to worry about all the stuff above, I probably wouldn't bother and just ship it off to someone LOL
Mostly I want to know exactly what's going on with the engine so that I can better diagnose issues down the road. I.E. with my current issue: People keep asking if I'm sure the cam was degreed in properly and/or the timing chain etc was installed correctly. No. No I'm not. I have no idea. LOL but also

You need to check everything on the new heads as well. I bought new Stealth heads and the chrome was flaking off one of the valve stems. It never would have been seen if the heads hadn't been taken apart. 440 Source sent a me a new valve free of charge. The only way you will know exactly what's going on with your engine is if you build it yourself. You can do it!! I'm an average jack mechanic and it took me a long time to to build it, but I would not regret any of it.

 

[451Mopar]

The first thing is figuring out what you already have.
Maybe compression check, and figure out what cam is installed.
Does it have factory heads or aftermarket? Factory heads could be an issue as the engine likely has no quench in the chamber and the factory plug location at the edge of the cylinder also is bad for detonation/pinging.

In the short term, Using a valley tray gasket with the blocked off heat crossover, and running a lower temp thermostat, along with some fresh air air filter should all help lower the Inlet Air Temps (before and after the throttle body. Not sure what EFI you have, but on the Sniper and fiTech where the computer is part of the throttle body, I use some type of heat insulator spacer/gasket between the intake and throttle body. Usually because of hood clearance, I just use the Holley 108-12 Base gasket kit. It is 0.313" thick and comes with the carb mounting studs and nuts.

 

[kaj750]

Did you try colder spark plugs first?

All I did was swap a rotor cap when the issue started. Again, it's a long story that I have documented in another thread. I won't bore everyone with it here. Lol

I'm doing my first engine also, a small block 340 stroked to a 416. Went with roller cam and rockers, just for the flat tappet cam issues people are having mainly with the oil. Seems like a simple solution but an expensive one. Waiting on a cam grind from Howards, a 10 week wait. should be here before Christmas, I'm hoping. have a neighbor that has experience building small block Mopars, so should be good. Being thorough is my plan and just double and triple check everything, alot of $$$ into this build. You should be good, lots of good advice on this site, I just learned a few things reading this thread. Good luck.

Lucky! Not one person in my town of 750,000 people are able to help. I'm on my own.

The first thing is figuring out what you already have.
Maybe compression check, and figure out what cam is installed.
Does it have factory heads or aftermarket? Factory heads could be an issue as the engine likely has no quench in the chamber and the factory plug location at the edge of the cylinder also is bad for detonation/pinging.

In the short term, Using a valley tray gasket with the blocked off heat crossover, and running a lower temp thermostat, along with some fresh air air filter should all help lower the Inlet Air Temps (before and after the throttle body. Not sure what EFI you have, but on the Sniper and fiTech where the computer is part of the throttle body, I use some type of heat insulator spacer/gasket between the intake and throttle body. Usually because of hood clearance, I just use the Holley 108-12 Base gasket kit. It is 0.313" thick and comes with the carb mounting studs and nuts.

Yes, I know what I have. Luckily I have a "few" years experience being around cars, so a bit familiar with got to check the basics. Great advice, though!

I'm not sure I can fit a phenolic spacer. The hood is really close. If Sniper is right, I'm seeing IATs momentarily touch 140*F, sitting summer months The car drives great when it's only 80*F outside, though.

 

[451Mopar]

I'm not sure I can fit a phenolic spacer. The hood is really close. If Sniper is right, I'm seeing IATs momentarily touch 140*F, sitting summer months The car drives great when it's only 80*F outside, though.

I'm guessing with the 140 degree IATs that it is getting heated air from the radiator?
As a test, maybe remove the hood and see if that reduces the IATs to where the car stops pinging?
If that works, maybe look at a way to rig up a cold air inlet to the throttle body.
What is the tuning like when it pings? Maybe a slightly richer mixture to use fuel vaporization might help lower the air/fuel temps entering the engine.
On timing, I would not add "vacuum"/ high MAP advance above the normal ignition timing until the pinging is under control.
I don't know your combination, but I would not try reducing ignition timing too much as that can make the engine run hotter.

 

[451Mopar]

I'm torn between keeping the flat tappet and doing roller. I'm pretty sure all the extra zinc in my oil isn't the greatest for my wideband sensor. I like keeping things as OEM for simplicity but also know that I may need to make some changes for longevity.

How much is the car driven? Switching to a roller cam is really expensive if changing from a stock setup.
Some costs of converting are:
Roller Cam
Roller Lifters
Valve springs for the roller cam, and maybe matching retainers and locks?
If stock heads, might need machine work on the valve spring seats for different diameter springs, and valve guides for PC seals (when using dual springs).
Adjustable Rocker Arms
3-Bolt timing chain set and bolts
Cam thrust button
Bronze oil pump drive gear
Pushrods sized for new valve train setup.

Factory flat tappet:
Joe Gibbs, Amsoil, or other "Hot Rod" engine oil
Maybe have to replace the O2 sensor once in awhile. Really the O2 sensor should still last fairly long if the engine is not burning excessive oil.
OEM cars ran EFI for around 16 years (1980-1996) before they changed the oil to low ZDDP

 

[ckessel]

kaj, have you tried to hook up with any of the Mopar dudes in your area? Maybe through the club or the local cars n coffee get togethers?

 

[kaj750]

kaj, have you tried to hook up with any of the Mopar dudes in your area? Maybe through the club or the local cars n coffee get togethers?

There are none that I can find. At least none willing to help. I've offered to pay what I had to. Actually found one guy that didn't want to do the work but was willing to walk me through it over as many weekends as it took, for a fair price. He flaked on me weekend after weekend while my car sat dormant, so I gave up.

 

[ckessel]

Keep plugging along on finding help. There's bound to be someone.

 

[Mbrew]

as engines go there relatively easy , when you add aluminum heads and other aftermarket items then it gets trickier.
Cam selection is a factor too.( Melling RV)
Most likely cam bearings will need to be tweaked ( bb Mopar issue)
Good aftermarket head gaskets are essential Felpro is your friend here.
Also engine part suppliers such as Melling should be an important consideration.
I say keep it simple for the first one and let your confidents build.

 

[padam]

These old engines are actually very simple. The issues are that most likely someone has likely messed with the engine before, or bolted on different parts without checking all the fitment. You used to be able to get OEM parts to just bolt on, sort of like newer engines, but now most parts are aftermarket and often need to be closely inspected and fitted to the engine to make sure they work correctly.
The other issue is the old 1960's through 1970's engines were built for leaded fuels, and hi-zddp oils. So many rebuilds include hardened exhaust valve seats, or just bolt on newer aftermarket heads that flow better and are lighter weight. Modern fuels seem to vaporize easy where the exhaust heat crossover really is no longer needed and can make the carb too hot vaporizing the fuel in the fuel bowls. Because of the change in oil, some opt for a roller tappet valve train or running "Hot Rod" oils with higher ZDDP for the old flat tappet lifter cams.
The other aspect is mis/mash of aftermarket parts that all need to be inspected, fitted and made sure they all work together.
This is one of the differences between "building" and engine and "assembling" an engine.

This just made me think to factor in cost of high zddp oil as a factor when choosing flat tappet or roller. $100 oil changes get old pretty fast.

 

[kaj750]

This just made me think to factor in cost of high zddp oil as a factor when choosing flat tappet or roller. $100 oil changes get old pretty fast.

How many oil change would it take you to recover the $$$ spent on the roller set up?

 

[oldkimmer]

There are none that I can find. At least none willing to help. I've offered to pay what I had to. Actually found one guy that didn't want to do the work but was willing to walk me through it over as many weekends as it took, for a fair price. He flaked on me weekend after weekend while my car sat dormant, so I gave up.

Jim Lusk and his sons are in your area. They are good ppl. Jim is on FABO. Kim