4 Speed or 727?

[67 B-body]

I'm at a cross road! I had full intensions of keeping my car outfited with a manual trans, but now that I'm in to it I just don't know. The car is factory with a 3 speed manual trans, and a 318. I now have my 440 near completion, and have to look forward to the next step of car tottal completion. I concidered using an A833 4 speed OD trans that I got at a very good price, but now have hesitations of using it because my engine build has ended up going alot further in HP than I originaly planed "go figure". Now I have to come up with an older Non - overdrive 4 speed and bellhousing, or just forget the whole idea and go with "what I think is" the easier / less expensive route and just stick an automatic in the thing and forget about it. Now with that said, I think the items needed will be the flex plate, torque convertor, trans, drive shaft yoke, Aftermarket floor shifter, and automatic trans rear mount cross member. I am also interested in seeing if anyone is interested in the manual 3 speed and A833 4 speed od trans, flywheel and hurst shifter on the 4 speed in trade or partial trade for the items I need to go automatic.
I built a 727 w/reverse shift cheeta manual valve body for my 69 RR years ago and enjoyed it. I would probably want to do something similar for my new ride as well.
Any thoughts / opinions on this?
Thanks

 

[FatJack]

Have you considered a Tremec T-56 six speed? Fairly cheap used, tough as nails (Viper version) 50% overdrive in 6th gear!!! Can easily run 4.30 gears and still cruise at 70 mph about 1600 rpm.

 

[wannadrag]

I'll take a stick car any day.

 

[67 B-body]

Have you considered a Tremec T-56 six speed? Fairly cheap used, tough as nails (Viper version) 50% overdrive in 6th gear!!! Can easily run 4.30 gears and still cruise at 70 mph about 1600 rpm.

Doesn't that require alot of special "high priced" additional items to install? I haven't done a search yet, but if it's what I'm thinking it requires Hyd throw out bearing, special bellhousing, starter, flywheel?

 

[FatJack]

Doesn't that require alot of special "high priced" additional items to install? I haven't done a search yet, but if it's what I'm thinking it requires Hyd throw out bearing, special bellhousing, starter, flywheel?

Not sure about that. Call Keisler and ask them they are the experts. The T-56 is what is in my Viper truck and I love it. You can find the trannys used for $2000 or a little less.

 

[Cranky]

You can start reading about it here.... http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/...five_speed_transmission_conversion/index.html

I have a Jerico setup for my 66 but I'm thinking of selling it and going with the T56 unit instead. High priced? I like being able to run 4.56's on the street and still cruise down the highway.....and with a more of a wild engine, 1600 @ 70 is too slow anyways lol

 

[67 B-body]

Not sure about that. Call Keisler and ask them they are the experts. The T-56 is what is in my Viper truck and I love it. You can find the trannys used for $2000 or a little less.

WOW... That's way more than I'm willing to spend for a trans! I work on a budget with 5 kids at home..LOL! I do all my own work to cut costs and have been very succesful over the years of doing this. I would never be able to explain to my wife as to why I thought it a smart move to spend upwards of 3 grand on the trans and all required "special" items needed to use it. Thaks for your thoughts though!!:tongue8:

 

[Cranky]

I bought my Jerico from an individual for 2500 but I got the whole mess from the flywheel to the shifter. It was new and had never been installed. The deals are out there but you have to find them. If it were me and had the OD unit with everything I needed to install it with, I'd do it. 4th will hold up if you don't try to hammer it. I've always liked 4 speeds and for the last 20 years, everything has been automatic and I'm kinda tired of them and the leaks that generally go with them...

 

[67 B-body]

I bought my Jerico from an individual for 2500 but I got the whole mess from the flywheel to the shifter. It was new and had never been installed. The deals are out there but you have to find them. If it were me and had the OD unit with everything I needed to install it with, I'd do it. 4th will hold up if you don't try to hammer it. I've always liked 4 speeds and for the last 20 years, everything has been automatic and I'm kinda tired of them and the leaks that generally go with them...

Well, it's certainly still an option. I do need a bellhousing for sure, to use the OD unit. I dont know about the other little things like shifter mounting bracket, Correct flywheel size / starter / bellhousing combo. I think the trans I have would have been from a 1/2 ton truck, however I'm not certain on this. It has a Hurst shifter "appears to be stock" and linkage still in tact, But I think "correct me if I'm wrong" that the shifter mounting brackets varied from body types and would need to be replaced. Also a bellhousing with the larger bearing hole will need to be found. Now with that said, I have also read that the 318 in my car has the same bolt pattern flywheel and can be interchanged with the 440, "Is this true"? I measured the clutch disk that I replaced last summer from the small block, but I don't remember what it was and would have to check when I return home tomorrow. So I hoped to use the flywheel, new clutch, and pressure plate that has about two miles on it for the 440. Aftermarket companies "like summit" list flywheels and clutch assy's as they interchange between small and big blocks, however they do show another number for big blocks as well. The short of it is, if I keep the OD unit I need a bellhousing that has the correct input hole, possibly a shifter mount bracket, and an output shaft "I read the three speed and four speed ouptuts are different".
Does this sound about right to you Cranky?

 

[Cranky]

The B body had one floor shift location but when the E body was introduced, they needed the location moved rearward so the factory just used a tailshaft with the two locations on all B and E transmissions. The truck 833 had the long tailshaft and the cars that came with them used the short tail shaft like the A's had. The OD 833 only came in light duty 1/2 ton pickups and the smaller cars and should all used the 10.5" clutch and the smaller flywheel...130 tooth iirc so you should see no starter problems. The 11" flywheel came in some high performance cars and heavy duty apps. The cars that had the OD trans had the smaller output shaft (had the small slip yoke) and the trucks had the large one. Yes, a flywheel from a 440 will bolt on a small block with balance being an issue but a 318 had internal balance while a 440 could be either or depending on the package. One more thing, the early OD trans had a cast iron case but are pretty hard to find....

 

[67 B-body]

The B body had one floor shift location but when the E body was introduced, they needed the location moved rearward so the factory just used a tailshaft with the two locations on all B and E transmissions. The truck 833 had the long tailshaft and the cars that came with them used the short tail shaft like the A's had. The OD 833 only came in light duty 1/2 ton pickups and the smaller cars and should all used the 10.5" clutch and the smaller flywheel...130 tooth iirc so you should see no starter problems. The 11" flywheel came in some high performance cars and heavy duty apps. The cars that had the OD trans had the smaller output shaft (had the small slip yoke) and the trucks had the large one. Yes, a flywheel from a 440 will bolt on a small block with balance being an issue but a 318 had internal balance while a 440 could be either or depending on the package. One more thing, the early OD trans had a cast iron case but are pretty hard to find....

So then, my memory and research has come up true. I can use the flywheel on my internaly balanced 440 taken from the 318. they were both internaly balanced engines so there should be no issues their. I wasn't sure about the compatibility between the bellhousing / flywheel / starter combination, but it sounds as if it's not going to be an issue. Now I just need to collect an OD bellhousing, or machine a non OD Bell input dia to the correct size. I knew about the two mounting locations for the shifter, and I thought the trans was the "long" type and what I need for the B body. I am still uncertain about the actual shifter mounting bracket. I thought they also changed depending on vehicle.... Especialy from truck to car. Good new is that this doesn't have to be exact "stock appearing", and I have a brand new shorter Hurst shifter handle to put in place of the longer "truck" shifter handle.

 

[383man]

I use an auto in my 63 Ply street/strip car and it works great. If you plan to race it alot and put sticky tires on it then I would think hard about the auto. Its not as hard on parts as the stick is if you race the stick car and run it hard. The auto is just as fast with a good converter. I used to race a stick shift 340 Dart years ago and it ran a best of 11.94 and it broke alot of parts in the stock driveline. But I launched it hard and ran it flat out even when shifting. Just something to consider if you plan to race alot. Course a stick car on the street with street tires will just spin them most of the time if you launch it hard. Good luck , Ron

 

[Cranky]

I use an auto in my 63 Ply street/strip car and it works great. If you plan to race it alot and put sticky tires on it then I would think hard about the auto. Its not as hard on parts as the stick is if you race the stick car and run it hard. The auto is just as fast with a good converter. I used to race a stick shift 340 Dart years ago and it ran a best of 11.94 and it broke alot of parts in the stock driveline. But I launched it hard and ran it flat out even when shifting. Just something to consider if you plan to race alot. Course a stick car on the street with street tires will just spin them most of the time if you launch it hard. Good luck , Ron

I know this is a bit off topic but in a way, it's not. What all were you breaking? A buddy and I ran a Super Street car with a 4 speed and once we figured it out, the breakage stopped. There are pros and cons with both systems but getting them both right is important to parts longevity....but yeah, an automatic isn't usually as severe as a stick car. The biggest pro with a stick car is that you don't have to mess with a converter at the various tracks or if you make a change to the car. You can change your launch rpm at will

 

[66 coronet deluxe]

I would pick 727 w/ manual valve body & killer torque convertor for straight line performance. It's basicly manual without a clutch to worry about blowing or missing shifts.

 

[Cranky]

I would pick 727 w/ manual valve body & killer torque convertor for straight line performance. It's basicly manual without a clutch to worry about blowing or missing shifts.

With a good trans and a good shifter, it's in the driver's hands. If ya can't shift, go with the auto.

 

[696pack]

Don't even consider that factory OD trans. It has a lousy gear ratio split that is not race friendly and it will not hold up to big block power.

If you need an overdrive for street/strip combo driving because you are going to run deep gears, the Passon overdrive gear set that will fit inside your standard Mopar 4 speed box is the lease invasive to your car and the most economical but still expensive.

Here is link to the specs on it.
http://www.passonperformance.com/images/stories/passon_documents/Passon_Overdrive_Flyer_20091109.pdf

 

[67 B-body]

Don't even consider that factory OD trans. It has a lousy gear ratio split that is not race friendly and it will not hold up to big block power.

If you need an overdrive for street/strip combo driving because you are going to run deep gears, the Passon overdrive gear set that will fit inside your standard Mopar 4 speed box is the lease invasive to your car and the most economical but still expensive.

Here is link to the specs on it.
http://www.passonperformance.com/images/stories/passon_documents/Passon_Overdrive_Flyer_20091109.pdf

This is exactly what brought me to the question....

I have read this in several different places and began questioning my original thought process. My car is a factory shifter car and realy enjoy jamming a good four speed, but changing from a bone stock 318 3speed car to a built big block and 4 speed opened the door for decisions. I had to purchase everything in either case, so what way do I go? I found the OD 4speed at a VERY good price and bought it. This was before I had a chance to do a lot of research on them, and before my engine build went off towards a higher horsepower build.
I always invite opinions towards durability of any equipment, but I also like to hear the actual experiance of failures from those who state such "facts". In otherwords, have you actualy tried this combination and found it unsatifactory? If so, I would love to hear more of your findings.
Thank you in advance for any further discusion of your findings.
BTW, The engine wound up going from a mild build to a Balanced lower end using H beam rods, Steel Crankshaft, ARP studs in the mains, Stud Girdle, 7 qt oil pan, Victor type heads with the relocated valves and raised exhaust ports, domed forged aluminum pistons, 850 Holley double pump carb with jet extensions installed and blocked rear power valve 50cc acc pumps, Mechanical solid lift camshaft 612 lift w/1.6 ratio rockers, Haven't purchased the intake yet but looking at the Victor or Team G.

 

[Cranky]

I mentioned that the early OD units used a cast iron case...those were better. The later ones were aluminum. That's the rub. The shaft for the OD gets a good deal of loading and the aluminum isn't up to par to hold it when a lot of power gets applied but with the power you're going to have you're probably going to want to lean on it and it's not going to hold up plus you probably will not like the gear splits. It's basically a 3 speed trans with an OD. 3rd gear is 1-1 like a regular 4 speed is in 4th. It'll take some abuse in the first 3 gears but not like an older iron case 4 speed will....but I didn't realize you were going to a wild engine like that lol

 

[67 B-body]

I mentioned that the early OD units used a cast iron case...those were better. The later ones were aluminum. That's the rub. The shaft for the OD gets a good deal of loading and the aluminum isn't up to par to hold it when a lot of power gets applied but with the power you're going to have you're probably going to want to lean on it and it's not going to hold up plus you probably will not like the gear splits. It's basically a 3 speed trans with an OD. 3rd gear is 1-1 like a regular 4 speed is in 4th. It'll take some abuse in the first 3 gears but not like an older iron case 4 speed will....but I didn't realize you were going to a wild engine like that lol

Yep, the one I have is the Aluminum gear box, with cast iron extension housing.
Well, maybe I can sell this 4 speed, the 3 speed and bellhousing, and the 67 318 being replaced to finance the 4 speed and bellhousing I need.
Or I'll just have to talk the wife into letting me spend some more money and keep the other stuff around.

 

[383man]

"Cranky" when I raced my 340 Dart 4-speed I broke a driveshaft , 2 stock 4-speed tranny's , a few U-joints , the ring and pinion and a clutch ! All this in 4 years of bracket racing once or twice a month. Ron