528" RB cylinder and lifter wear...advice needed.

[Brewzer67]

I am hoping the collective can help me out (or at least calm my paranoia). I have a 528" that now has 1500 miles on a fresh rebuild. I have the heads off as I prepare to switch over to a roller cam and the new Trick Flows so before I put the new heads on and button things up I want to make sure I am making the right call by not going back through the shortblock.


Here are the 3 concerns:
1. The heads I previously had were some well ported Stage VI's that I bought used off eBay. After I bought them, I sent them to my head porter to look at to make sure there was no work needed before using them. He said all looked good, put new Teflon seals on and put a little spit and polish on the spacer port work (and picked up a few more CFM by working them a little more where they met up with the manifold). At the time I bought them I was just sending out the short block to a local Mopar specialist. Once I was given the all clear on the heads I gave them to him and he put the whole motor together. After dropping it in the car and breaking it in, I unfortunately had tons of oil smoke. Upon examination, three cylinders on the even bank were dumping lots of oil into the headers. Eventually the cylinders all started to come around so I thought I was good and it was just the rings being stubborn. After 1500 miles it still huffed some but I wrote it off as residual deposits still burning off. I just pulled the heads today and found a few anomalies. All cylinders except 1 (not just the one's on the even bank) show that they have pulled a lot of oil in. Seven cylinders show lots of signs of oil on the back sides of the valves, so I think it is being pulled past the guides. The guides were actually a little tight when checked by the porter and new Teflon seals installed so I don't know why they are pulling so much oil. I do know that when I am driving under steady state on the freeway I am pulling 25" of vacuum which seems excessive. When I decelerate, it pegs my vacuum gauge. I think this is likely the cause for pulling so much oil past the guides. Am I correct in this thinking? What can I do to fix the heads? Is there a better seal I can use? Is this common with the Stage VI's? I know it can be if the spring pockets aren't relieved, but mine have been. I want to re-use them on a 448" short block I have for a different project so I am looking for any advice on how I can fix this? Vacuum pump maybe?

2. Looking at the lifters they show an odd wear pattern. It is apparent they are definitely rotating in the bores (which were align honed but un-bushed at the time of the rebuild). The lifter faces all look good and lobes also look great.The wear pattern on a few of them shows what almost looks like striped vertical wear patterns. Smooth with no grooves or scratches, but definitely bands of wear. Any ideas? I'll try to get a picture to add to the post tomorrow.

3. I am also concerned about the wear pattern on the cylinders themselves because they all show more pronounced wear at the spot the where the two ring lands are at TDC then I have ever seen on any of my previous motors. I am also concerned by the vertical scuffing in the 2nd picture. It can't be felt with a fingernail but it seems to me to be a little more wear than I am used to seeing with that little of mileage. It should also be noted that this wear pattern is most prevalent on the one good cylinder. This is my first stroker this big (4.375 stroke) so it might be normal. Any input would be appreciated.

 

[miller]

For what it's worth...(you won't like it!)

Sounds kinda fishy, tight valve to guides. Why? Their either right, or wrong. But, that's what you get with 'slap on parts'.

The cylinder bit. Your right to wonder about it. Besides some scuffing, that won't get any better, also see burned oil on the walls. There's a reason for that...possibly bad assembly, or a few things adding up, even down to ring gaps!

IF it was mine, it would come down completely, and start over, checking any and all clearances, and make them right.
But, like I said, just my lousy opinion.

 

[Brewzer67]

I don't know that I am so worried about the short block unless the ring marks at the top of the cylinder are of big concern. The oil in the cylinders came from the heads as far as I can tell. When I ran the leakdown on it before disassembly it was only 1.5% so the machine with work there seems to be ok. Since I've never pulled the heads off a motor this fresh I need to know if the scuffing looks out of the ordinary, or can it be attributed to a little wear due to piston speed and the oiling issue early on? When you reference the oil on the walls are you referring to the top of the cylinder or do you see something further down the wall I am missing? I get the wanting to be safe piece but I don't have concerns about the block as much as I did before discovering how much oil was making it past the guides. And just to provide context to the tight guide comment, the porter would like to have seen a little more clearance than the guides had to allow for the the heat a big motor like this generates. He didn't think they would be a problem but just wanted a little more clearance based on his experience with big block Mopars.

 

[miller]

Understand. Doesn't matter how many inches your dealing with, just basic engine stuff.

Did you by any chance run a good compression test on each cylinder? If so, what were the results? On the cylinders, might just be me, but I'd be wondering about ring gaps being right. But, that's your call. Probably why I do all my own work. Helps a bunch knowing exactly what's what, over trusting someone else. The cylinder wall scuffing could make more probs down the road.

No experiance on those heads. Stock guides, or replaced? Either way, depending on what type of guides, says what clearances you should have. Your builder said a little closer than they like? How much clearance??? What type guide seals installed? Any rate, sure, good chance guide seals are causing all your oil problems.

 

[Hemirunner]

If it's on the back side of the valves it's a cylinder head problem. Unfortunately it may have caused issues with the short block. The oil could very well have masked the issues and made for good leak down numbers. The cylinders don't look that bad, but it would be less expensive to rering it "while you're in there" vs pulling it down later. As for buying parts off ebay, why do we do it? It seems we always have time and money to do it over but we never have either to do it once and do it right.

 

[Brewzer67]

Understand. Doesn't matter how many inches your dealing with, just basic engine stuff.

Did you by any chance run a good compression test on each cylinder? If so, what were the results? On the cylinders, might just be me, but I'd be wondering about ring gaps being right. But, that's your call. Probably why I do all my own work. Helps a bunch knowing exactly what's what, over trusting someone else. The cylinder wall scuffing could make more probs down the road.

No experience on those heads. Stock guides, or replaced? Either way, depending on what type of guides, says what clearances you should have. Your builder said a little closer than they like? How much clearance??? What type guide seals installed? Any rate, sure, good chance guide seals are causing all your oil problems.

Guides = aftermarket Bronze set at .0008 -.0010 on the intake side. Perfect Circle Teflon seals.
I did run some checks before tear down. Cranking compression was around 210 a hole and all cylinders were within 5psi variance so that looked pretty solid. Leakdown was good as well and very consistent from cylinder to cylinder. After researching further I am sure I was pulling oil past the guides the entire time. I have never had a motor that pulled 25"+ of vacuum while driving at steady state on the freeway (or on the street for that matter). 18"-20" babying it on a flat grade maybe, but not almost all the time, and not that would peg a gauge and keep it there when coasting down a mild grade. The heads are only 235cc ports and flow very well (fat flow on the bottom and 345CFM+ by .700 lift). With the cam, quench (.027) and compression (11.5:1) I am running, the motor was a well matched combination and used very much in it's prime operating zone. I have 528" with a 4.30 gear and 28" tire that screams down the freeway at 70 mph near the 4k rpm mark and still gets 13.8 mpg while doing so. The heads work, they just have an oiling issue I think is tied to too many cubes for their size runner which leads to the excessive oil use on the top end.
I didn't have a PCV system or vacuum pump helping out on the crankcase side either so that probably didn't help the seals do their job either. I guess I am wondering if anyone else that has experience with the Stage VI's can speak to their oil use tendencies. Looking further at the pistons I know for sure it is pulling past the guides because you can see it in the pattern that is deposited on the piston tops. Deposits follow the normal flow pattern of air/fuel into the cylinder with the deposits being substantially lighter on the shrouded side of the valve. If I need to restrict some oil to the top end and run a vacuum pump I will do so, but if someone has had better luck with a particular brand of seal I would rather go there. I have never been a big fan of messing with oil flow (or of the Perfect Circle Teflon seals). They always seemed to rigid to me. Any Stage VI veterans out there that can weigh in?

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If it's on the back side of the valves it's a cylinder head problem. Unfortunately it may have caused issues with the short block. The oil could very well have masked the issues and made for good leak down numbers. The cylinders don't look that bad, but it would be less expensive to rering it "while you're in there" vs pulling it down later. As for buying parts off ebay, why do we do it? It seems we always have time and money to do it over but we never have either to do it once and do it right.

It is all on the backside of the intake and definitely coming past the guides. What issue do you think it caused the short block? There's not a ton of oil on the piston tops so the problem wasn't severe, just appears to have been persistent. It doesn't look like there was so much coming in that it caked on ring lands or ring tops and from what I can see the cylinders don't look too bad (other than my question on the ring line at the top of the cylinder). And that part I am not sure of because I have never had a motor apart this soon after a rebuild. Normally I don't have the heads off until they have 20k-30k miles on them. I build 'em, beat 'em for 20k-30k and then build the next faster one (I have only had one motor not last that long). That gives me 3-5 years to save for the next motor. This strategy has gotten me from a 15 second 69 Road Runner to the current 10.90 Coronet 1 second at a time.

I guess I don't necessarily agree with the "not doing it right" part. I bought a used set of well prepped heads off of someone stepping up the horsepower ladder. They even shipped them without full payment so I could have them checked by my shop before paying the rest just to make sure I was happy with them. I had my porter pressure test them, tear them down and assess the valve job to confirm it was what they seller said it would be, and replaced the only part that did not pass thorough inspection (the guide seals-which actually did pass inspection but it was cheap insurance). This is exactly the same thing I am doing with the Trick Flows I just bought new. Same process, just one bought new, the other bought used. Old car parts never die, they just get re-"tired".

 

[miller]

Guides = aftermarket Bronze set at .0008 -.0010 on the intake side. Perfect Circle Teflon seals.

Last chime...fully agree, on those heads you have, need words from someone who has past history on 'em.

The guides...there are a handful of different types of 'aftermarket' bronze guides. Some of 'em, I flat don't like, but...that's just me. Years ago had a pair of heads worked, had threaded Bronze Wall inserts put in, using normal clearances for 'those' type guide inserts. .0005 intakes, .0015 exhaust. Flat outright loved 'em.
But, seems kinda hard to find anyone who will put those things in these days. Most never heard of 'em.

The guide clearance you show, depending on the kind of guides you have, yeah a little snug. But, if they work for you, go for it! Guide seals...used those teflon seals most of my engine building days. Got a set for my current motor...junk...through the years, they've gotten worst. Went to the blue ? Ironclad seals. Time will tell on those.

Cylinders...'something' is causing the scoring. All I'll say on that, except it won't go away. Good luck on it!

 

[Brewzer67]

Thanks Miller. I actually talked to the previous owner of the heads last night and he is on the same page as you. He has not had good luck with those seals either. He had the same issue I saw and switched to some silicone premium one's from a company called EngineTech. So that problem is now solved. I am still on the fence whether tearing everything else down makes sense. I'll have to add up the cost and see if it is worth it. I don't do my own engine work so there are all the labor costs to be considered for a motor that will only be in there for 3 or 4 years. I am going to assume if I fix the oil issue it should resolve any contribution that it had to the scuffing problem. I understand it won't get better, but I need to balance the cost with how much worse it is likely to get. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[miller]

Quite welcome. Just trying to help out.

It had been 20 plus years since my last build. (Too much time playing with round motors.) Tried the teflon seals on my current build...they were not made the same, as the older ones...tear real easy...junk.

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Understand when you shove alot of $ into a motor.