A little different twist ... has anyone went to EFI and regretted it?

[73HEMI_RR_GTX]

You're a smooth talking bar-steward aren't you.

I’m sure his better-half appreciates being compared to the weight of his car to the Forum members.That’s an example of true love and respect as stated. NOT!

 

[rmchrgr]

Initially, but YOU made a retort about a financial feasibility point made by RC. Maybe to you it has nothing to do with how many miles a car gets driven; to others, it is.

Still a non-sequitur but OK.

 

[73HEMI_RR_GTX]

I'm sure that EFI is an ok thing, but.....

1. If you're driving your classic vehicle a vehicle just a few hundred miles per year, why bother?
2. If you own a high dollar original car, the addition of EFI will drive the value of that car down.

Now, if you have an original slant 6/318 car that you've turned into a Superbird clone and plan on driving it thousands of miles a year, then I agree that EFI is worth considering. But you won't find anyone putting on EFI on a quarter million dollar freshly restored matching numbers 440-6 Superbird.

That example isn’t really relevant for the topic being discussed. IMO

The majority of Mopar enthusiasts or any other car enthusiast doesn’t have the money to buy or build a car numbers matching $250k car. And if they did, they could put any type of fuel system on it that they choose. It’s their Car and their money.

 

[joe smith]

I’m sure his better-half appreciates being compared to the weight of his car to the Forum members.That’s an example of true love and respect as stated. NOT!

I believe he was speaking about his EX, which makes it all fair and funnier than hell.....

 

[tonysrt]

I think the reason a lot of us jumped into F.I. because we have cars with it and they run and start so consistent, hot or cold, we thought the after market had struck gold by selling it. Of course a lot of us have been disappointed with the outcome of these units. I agree the ECU failures are a quality issue but these companies don't know it till we encounter the problems. Again it goes back to what I said about real world testing.

 

[WileERobby]

Still a non-sequitur but OK.

 

[451Mopar]

On the other EFI thread, I posted some stuff on cost. Most of the conversation is around the inexpensive TBI Sniper and FiTech EFI.
They are pretty good for the cost, but I am concerned about the built-in ECU getting too hot. That is why I try insulating the TBI unit from manifold heat and like the idea of the return type fuel system circulating cool fuel through the TBI unit.

The reason we mostly talk TBI Sniper / Fitech is that the total cost of the system is on par with the total cost of a performance system.
It is more expensive if you are switching from an already working carb setup, but if starting from scratch where you don't have any of the carb fuel system or ignition system, there is not much cost difference when looking at the 500-600+ HP power range.

On the other hand, sequential port EFI, with a high end controller and other high end parts can be expensive. For a long time there was not much for us Mopar guys other then the higher end port and more expensive TBI units.
Back when I did the Edelbrock XT port EFI, it was over $4,000 and it only had a narrow-band O2, and a very basic controller.
It worked OK, but the controller did not control anything but the EFI, and no self learning and such so tuning was alot harder.

These new all-in-one TBI units brought the cost and complexity of the EFI down to be a decent alternative for the average hot rodder.
The EFI is just another option for those who want it. Carbs are good too, and cost wise would likely make more sense on a 400 hp and lower engine that can likely get by with a stock fuel system, and dose not need all the extras the EFI comes with.

 

[rmchrgr]

Live long and prosper. With EFI of course.

 

[Garceau]

I am certainly appreciative of the great feedback this thread has generated. I am really "wanting" EFI of some sort. However I am still debating if the timing is right for it or not. If I do it, as I mentioned earlier it would be a full system upgrade to include the tank and ignition.

One of the issues I am dealing with and didnt have a reason to share is I recently moved, and no longer have my 4 car garage to do everything in. Renting a place, and trying to do this outside in the driveway just doesnt sound as appealing as cranking some tunes friday night and sticking to the garage until it fires.

I suppose the only real concern and overly time consuming issue would be dropping the fuel tank, replacing it, and routing the lines. The rest doesnt look considerably longer than swapping a carb and an hour or two of timing/tuning. Living in a new area, I just dont have the contacts/friends in this area to hit up.

From following this thread and a few others - there is just no way I would do the conversion without a return style system, in another effort to keep the system a little cooler is if some type of heat deflector would be placed under the carb (I dont see them much any more, but seems to be in the 90s I saw them often as I had one on my drag car as well)

The old carb system that is on it, isnt right - if I stay with a carb, it would need to be replaced. I have given some thought to adding a wide band o2 sensor, starting to learn how all of that works and then eventually taking care of the tank and then maybe later doing an EFI conversion. I am not 100% married to a TBI set up, and have looked into a few other styles - however cost isnt the only deciding factor, it is one of the factors.

Again I cannot thank everyone enough for their passion in sharing their thoughts. I have had a few messages as well and I appreciate all the feedback.

 

[rmchrgr]

Garceau, I forgot about these the other day but better late than never - Holley makes "drop in" fuel pump modules now that install where the factory fuel pickup/sender assembly would be so no need to buy a tank. I don't know what car you're working on but they do offer a specific '68-'70 B Body unit with a 255lph pump which works with the basic 4150/650hp unit. You can even re-use your existing hard line. I've replaced a pickup/sender in a driveway, it's not a huge deal. While not a return system, it basically eliminates the need for it.

https://www.holley.com/products/fue...uel_pumps/muscle_car_efi_modules/parts/12-314

Just to provide a real-world example, I ran my Sniper on a basic Edelbrock Performer 383 intake with just a gasket for a year and there were no issues with it. Last fall I installed a 1/2" open wood spacer just to see what would happen - nothing, same exact performance. I left it on because I was too lazy to take it off but again, zero difference. YRMV.

I'm sure you realize this but one of the main advantages of most any EFI system is that the fuel is delivered at 60 psi and does not sit sloshing around in a bowl on top of a hot intake before it's sprayed/atomized into the plenum. Because of this arrangement, the usual problems associated with heat soak are essentially eliminated.

Be aware though, if you choose a Sniper system, the wiring harness they provide absolutely sucks because it's "universal" (read=designed for a small block Camaro). I ended up de-pinning the whole thing and made an entirely new one from scratch to make the wire connections actually work on a big-block B body Mopar. It's mostly assembled with Delphi connectors and terminals so if you plan to "customize" yours, you'll want to figure out what the terminals are and order them ahead of time. Other than that, the rest of install was pretty straightforward.

AndyF makes a Sniper-specific throttle cable bracket. I use one, it works.

http://arengineering.com/products/sniper-throttle-bracket/

He also makes a water neck spacer tapped for the temp sensor Holley uses so if your intake does not have a provision to adapt it or you want to keep your factory temp gauge working, then this setup helps.

http://arengineering.com/products/thermostat-spacer-with-efi-sensor-port/

Lots of stuff out there these days to make the install go smoother.

 

[HawkRod]

Be aware though, if you choose a Sniper system, the wiring harness they provide absolutely sucks because it's "universal" (read=designed for a small block Camaro). I ended up de-pinning the whole thing and made an entirely new one from scratch to make the wire connections actually work on a big-block B body Mopar. It's mostly assembled with Delphi connectors and terminals so if you plan to "customize" yours, you'll want to figure out what the terminals are and order them ahead of time. Other than that, the rest of install was pretty straightforward.

My FAST system instructions wanted me to drill a huge hole in my firewall to pass through the cable end and place the ECU in the car. No way I wanted to do that, so I also deconstructed their wiring harness. I wanted the car to look as reasonably stock looking as possible, so I then routed wires with my stock wiring and wrapped them in the old style friction tape. This is the under hood result for my now air conditioned and fuel injected 70 Road Runner. It took some time, but I think it was worth it.

Here is a shot without the air cleaner:

 

[WileERobby]

Live long and prosper. With EFI of course.

 

[WileERobby]

My FAST system instructions wanted me to drill a huge hole in my firewall to pass through the cable end and place the ECU in the car. No way I wanted to do that, so I also deconstructed their wiring harness. I wanted the car to look as reasonably stock looking as possible, so I then routed wires with my stock wiring and wrapped them in the old style friction tape. This is the under hood result for my now air conditioned and fuel injected 70 Road Runner. It took some time, but I think it was worth it.
View attachment 1259565

Here is a shot without the air cleaner:
View attachment 1259568

That looks great !

 

[rmchrgr]

Nice job Hawk.

I tried to hide the wiring too but didn't do as sanitary a job as you did! My "mistake" was trying to integrate the FI harness into another aftermarket harness during a complete re-wire of the whole car. After re-doing the entire thing over TWICE for various reasons, I needed to stop futzing around with it. I'm sure I could go back and re-do it again a third time but so far I've refrained.

 

[Garceau]

Garceau, I forgot about these the other day but better late than never - Holley makes "drop in" fuel pump modules now that install where the factory fuel pickup/sender assembly would be so no need to buy a tank. I don't know what car you're working on but they do offer a specific '68-'70 B Body unit with a 255lph pump which works with the basic 4150/650hp unit. You can even re-use your existing hard line. I've replaced a pickup/sender in a driveway, it's not a huge deal. While not a return system, it basically eliminates the need for it.

https://www.holley.com/products/fue...uel_pumps/muscle_car_efi_modules/parts/12-314

Just to provide a real-world example, I ran my Sniper on a basic Edelbrock Performer 383 intake with just a gasket for a year and there were no issues with it. Last fall I installed a 1/2" open wood spacer just to see what would happen - nothing, same exact performance. I left it on because I was too lazy to take it off but again, zero difference. YRMV.

I'm sure you realize this but one of the main advantages of most any EFI system is that the fuel is delivered at 60 psi and does not sit sloshing around in a bowl on top of a hot intake before it's sprayed/atomized into the plenum. Because of this arrangement, the usual problems associated with heat soak are essentially eliminated.

Be aware though, if you choose a Sniper system, the wiring harness they provide absolutely sucks because it's "universal" (read=designed for a small block Camaro). I ended up de-pinning the whole thing and made an entirely new one from scratch to make the wire connections actually work on a big-block B body Mopar. It's mostly assembled with Delphi connectors and terminals so if you plan to "customize" yours, you'll want to figure out what the terminals are and order them ahead of time. Other than that, the rest of install was pretty straightforward.

AndyF makes a Sniper-specific throttle cable bracket. I use one, it works.

http://arengineering.com/products/sniper-throttle-bracket/

He also makes a water neck spacer tapped for the temp sensor Holley uses so if your intake does not have a provision to adapt it or you want to keep your factory temp gauge working, then this setup helps.

http://arengineering.com/products/thermostat-spacer-with-efi-sensor-port/

Lots of stuff out there these days to make the install go smoother.

66 Satellite -

great pics on the wiring..... my wiring is all updated, but is in all the original routing etc.

 

[rmchrgr]

66 Satellite -

great pics on the wiring..... my wiring is all updated, but is in all the original routing etc.

Don't know if a '66 Plymouth tank will be the same as a '68-'70, guessing probably not. I have not seen a module specifically for that year.

The two main issues I have with the Holley harness is the length of the wires and how you're supposed to connect your power and ground "directly" to the battery terminals. Regarding the battery connections, they don't want you hooking the main power feed to the positive side of the coil or the wiper motor so they cover themselves with that statement. They say it over and over again. And if you call the tech line, that's the first thing they ask. It drives everyone nuts because it's not always practical or easy to accomplish.

Just have to understand they want you to use a "clean" power source that is not susceptible to radio frequency interference because it messes with the ECU. I'm going to be installing a Sniper on my other car and don't plan to connect directly to the battery because it's in the trunk. I'm going to run the main feed wire to an empty spot on the B+ buss of the fuse box, should be OK.

On my Coronet, the length of the harness was an issue because of where I mounted the various components. if you put things on the tops of the inner fenders it probably would make things easier but my ignition box is hidden under the battery tray and the coil is on the lower passenger-side inner fender. First, the main ECU harness barely reached the battery from the firewall and then the ignition harness wouldn’t reach the coil. All the components need ignition-switched 12v so there's long lengths of wire running from the front of the engine bay through the firewall and none of that reached the fuse box by the glove box.

I also didn’t want large, aftermarket blade fuse holders just hanging on the firewall so I re-did the harness both out of necessity and for appearance reasons. You can’t see it in the pic but below the air cleaner there are some unused wires coiled up on the back of the intake. If I could remove them I would.

I know this makes it sound like a huge hassle but I chose to do things a little differently. I still think the Holley harness leaves a bit to be desired but in general I'm sure it could be made to work without going to crazy. You just have to live with the as-is appearance and possibly make a compromise or two on where you choose to locate things. Likely not the first choice for the purists among us, especially for those who would rather not take apart a wiring harness they just paid good money for. I have no problem altering a wiring harness so it was easy for me. Guess it could be a deal breaker on some level depending how particular you are and/or what you're willing to do to achieve what you want.

Holley should make an un-terminated harness available for the Sniper but I'm sure that would detract from the "plug and play" aspect of their advertising. They offer them for the Terminator and Dominator but you can't adapt them over, they're completely different.

 

[CoronetDarter]

@CoronetDarter

What are you guys trying to say?

 

[CoronetDarter]

I'm not sure why this has become such a heated thread of carb vs. EFI. I think both are tools we can use on our old cars.
I have driven and heard about carbureted cars that run great and carbureted cars that run like absolute crap.
I have driven and heard about retrofit EFI cars that run great and retrofit EFI cars that run like absolute crap.

Barring the rare factory defects, a poorly running carb OR EFI system doesn't condemn the system as bad. It means something is wrong with the installation and tuning of the system. How you tune a carb is different than how you tune an EFI system. The knowledge of one vs. the other is not portable. Knowing how to tune a carb will not help that much with tuning an EFI system. But that doesn't make the EFI system bad (or vice versa).

So I respectfully disagree with those that say EFI is bad because they have had, or heard of, someone that had a poorly running one. There are just as many stories (or more) of carb cars running poorly. It's just that EFI is the newer thing so it will get the press, good and bad. The only problem is the bad stuff seems to stick.

I would also like to understand the claims like "Efi works great when it works but longevity is a problem". Really? Where does that come from? Any data to back that up?
I know I am an example of one only, but my FAST EFI system in my 70 Road Runner has been flawless for 7 years of driving, and that includes driving it across country. Yes, I fought with FAST during installation about a bad ECU (it was bad out of the box), but once I got that sorted the system has been perfect. No failures of any kind. I can sit in 95 degree temperatures in stop and go traffic with the A/C on and never worry about vapor lock. I have driven up Pike's Peak (a 9000 foot elevation change) and the car ran great. I have started it in 20 degree weather and 100 degree weather and it simply starts and runs with no fuss. My fuel economy is better. The car just works - period.

And to my above example, I'm sure someone could claim (and already has) that their carb works great too. So we are back to installation and tuning, not the system itself.
EFI is expensive, and requires detailed installation and tuning. But once in and properly tuned, it has benefits over carbs.

One big difference is that your system was installed years ago prior to companies incorporating the ECU into the TB. If I remember your build, you installed the FAST ECU under your dash, away from engine heat.
Considering EFI in general, the first decision is cost vs benefit. The second, and probably most important, is what product to use. The majority of frustrated EFI users (including myself) centers around FiTech. I firmly believe they manufacture an inferior product. If I was to try EFI again (Lord, take me now), I would go with the Edelbrock ProFlow 4.

 

[HawkRod]

One big difference is that your system was installed years ago prior to companies incorporating the ECU into the TB. If I remember your build, you installed the FAST ECU under your dash, away from engine heat.
Considering EFI in general, the first decision is cost vs benefit. The second, and probably most important, is what product to use. The majority of frustrated EFI users (including myself) centers around FiTech. I firmly believe they manufacture an inferior product. If I was to try EFI again (Lord, take me now), I would go with the Edelbrock ProFlow 4.

As you state, my ECU is mounted in the cabin under the dash, so I haven't had any temperature issues with the electronics. Designing the ECU to sit in the throttle body is going to put significant stress on the electronics due to heat from the engine. I can see how this may be a design flaw.

 

[Garceau]

Dang it..... never even considered the pro-flo 4