Bad fresh 727 noises

[icetech]

My car has defeated me... someone bout to get a smoking deal to make it go away .. wahh poor me..ok onto the problem..

Gonna go through what was all done to it before symptoms, will try to be thorough.

1962 small block pushbutton 727
Pump/front drum (the one that rides on the stator, i am not 100% on which is called which sorry) from a mid 70's car with the wide bushing..
all new seals, A&A billet low/reverse servo
Cope billet piston in the front clutch (i know the factory let that thing have crazy clearance but it bugged me..)
TF-2 shift key.. kept auto and acumulator spring/piston left in as i don't wanna have it slamming gears all the time, gets annoying.
Alto red thin clutches and kolenes, one clutch has 6 other has 5.. both checked with feeler gauges when setup and passed the air test before closing it up.

I think that's bout it.. the rest is all stock parts.. including sprag.. my little 318 might make 350hp.. All new seals/gaskets

Output shaft/tailshaft from a '65 727 (splined)
FTI 9.5" 3200 converter

Ok.. so, i have only had the car running for bout 5 mins total now.. tonight was most of that, just got water in it and let it idle to check for leaks and issues before i put on the exhaust/steering.. easier now.
It's on jackstands, no rear tires or drums on and i wanted to test the trans, neutral no issue.. reverse works fine (although it seemed to drag the motor down way more than i expected) 1st gear no issue.. axles spin all happy.
Put it in second and there is a SHHHHHHHHHHHHHH sound almost like running something over standpaper, i was hoping it was the rear drums, took em off.. but nope. that's the noise though. If i rev it at all i mean like 1400rpm not 4k it sounds like marbles and stops as soon as the rpm comes down and makes the SHHHHHH sound again, same in drive.

The sound sounds like it's from th front of the trans/converter but that makes no sense since 1st/rev are ok. (god i don't wanna hurt the converter )

As i was writing this it occured to me that the one thing that could do that would be if i messed up a planetary somehow.. i know there are 2 different pitches i think it was.. i thought i triple checked it all. but i could see a planetary not meshing making that noise.. and getting the unhappy marble sound under more power?

I am obviously not a trans guy thought and this is all just me guessing.. i'm hoping someone might have had something like this happen also at some point? I sooo don't wanna pull the trans but i would like to put in a b&m flex plate while i'm at it.. i forgot to order one before putting it together..

BTW.. should i get the bolt in sprag with only like 350hp (318, trick flows, howards roller) nothing great.. just for fun.



Thanks to anyone that reads this far... and fuckk i don't wanna deal with those sifter cables again

 

[Black_Sheep]

Quitting is for quitters!

Most of us have had setbacks, and sometimes serious setbacks. I had a pro built 727 fail while trying to pull the out of the garage. To add insult to injury, things happened to create trust issues so I had another shop go back through it again, only to discover that the previous shop replaced the torn o-rings and put it back together with damaged parts. These are the clutches and steels replaced by builder #2, they also replaced the messed up front band. I had the trans out 3 or 4 times before I could drive it farther than around the block so I know your pain.

I guess my point is, don't give up. Turn off the lights and walk away for a few days until the disappointment subsides. But stay after it, you'll figure things out...

 

[dvw]

Do you have the stone sheild at the lower front of the transmiision? If so my bet is it's hitting the converter bolts. Did you install the check ball that drives the rear pump inner rotor? The wrong front planet won't slide onto the 65 output shaft. What clutch clearances do you have? Never used more than 5 frictions in the front clutch, or more than 4 in the rear clutch. Even at 900 hp. We don't use billet pistons either.
Doug

 

[icetech]

Quitting is for quitters!

Most of us have had setbacks, and sometimes serious setbacks. I had a pro built 727 fail while trying to pull the out of the garage. To add insult to injury, things happened to create trust issues so I had another shop go back through it again, only to discover that the previous shop replaced the torn o-rings and put it back together with damaged parts. These are the clutches and steels replaced by builder #2, they also replaced the messed up front band. I had the trans out 3 or 4 times before I could drive it farther than around the block so I know your pain.

View attachment 1641085

I guess my point is, don't give up. Turn off the lights and walk away for a few days until the disappointment subsides. But stay after it, you'll figure things out...

Naw, not giving up.. just annoyed.. I will stress for 2 weeks bout a job that will take a few hours And they put those parts in a rebuild? wtf...

 

[icetech]

Do you have the stone sheild at the lower front of the transmiision? If so my bet is it's hitting the converter bolts. Did you install the check ball that drives the rear pump inner rotor? The wrong front planet won't slide onto the 65 output shaft. What clutch clearances do you have? Never used more than 5 frictions in the front clutch, or more than 4 in the rear clutch. Even at 900 hp. We don't use billet pistons either.
Doug

No shield on the converter and it only does it in 2nd gear, if it were converter bolts wouldn't it be in all gears? I don't recall the clearance on the clutch it's been 6-7 months (and thinking on it i might have gone from 4>5 not 5>6.. sorry bout that.. my memory is absolute crap..

The billet piston was just to take up the factory slop in the forward piston/belleville spring.. way overkill for a trans that will see less power than a stock 440.. i just overthink and want to not have stuff die.

Gonna drain it and drop the pan this weekend to take a look if anything obvious happened.. then pull the trans probably (being old and doing **** on my back on the floor is not as fun as it used to be)

 

[dvw]

I didn't fully read the post about 2nd gear only, geting old. 2nd gear noise only is an odd one. The front drum and sunshell have stopped rotating. Supose its possible the planet needle bearings are noisy. Pretty rare to see a needle bearing failure. I've only seen three ever.
Doug

 

[icetech]

I didn't fully read the post about 2nd gear only, geting old. 2nd gear noise only is an odd one. The front drum and sunshell have stopped rotating. Supose its possible the planet needle bearings are noisy. Pretty rare to see a needle bearing failure. I've only seen three ever.
Doug

yeah, i'm sure it's something i messed up (which makes me mad.. i triple checked everything cause i didn't want this to happen) whats weird is the sound isn't like scraping, or whining or grinding.. just a SHHHHHHHH like something rubbing then marbles.. i'm curious to see what it is and hope i didn't hurt the case. I have a spare BB one but not SB

 

[Dave6T4]

Sprag clutch? It overruns in Second and Third. Maybe recheck your Kickdown band adjustment. This can be done with the trans in car. Back the lock nut off, run the adjuster screw in until hand right (6 ft. Lb.), back out 2 turns, and lock it down. With 5 clutches in the front drum, you should have at least .075" clearance ( .015" per clutch) . In your first post, you said it made this sound in Second and Drive?

 

[icetech]

Sprag clutch? It overruns in Second and Third. Maybe recheck your Kickdown band adjustment. This can be done with the trans in car. Back the lock nut off, run the adjuster screw in until hand right (6 ft. Lb.), back out 2 turns, and lock it down.

That would explain if it were just dragging or hanging maybe.. but not the weird noise.. it's like shaking 3 paint cans at a time, that kinda rattle.. i will double check the band before i pull anything though.. I did have to put all the springs/rollers back in the sprag but i'm sure i did it properly (but i could be wrong.. cause something is not right)

 

[icetech]

Watching a cope video bout sprag and it is one of the items that changes in second and third.. i didn't remove the outer sprag from the case, so i don't think it would be possible to mess it up.. but i it were spinning in the case it would probably make a real bad noise... and trash the case.. i hope to pull it this weekend depending how i feel..

 

[icetech]

Sprag clutch? It overruns in Second and Third. Maybe recheck your Kickdown band adjustment. This can be done with the trans in car. Back the lock nut off, run the adjuster screw in until hand right (6 ft. Lb.), back out 2 turns, and lock it down. With 5 clutches in the front drum, you should have at least .075" clearance ( .015" per clutch) . In your first post, you said it made this sound in Second and Drive?

Yeah, reverse is no noise, it drags the motor down pretty hard though which surprised me, in first, the axles spin and no weird noises, switch to second and the SHHHH starts and same in drive.. I am not obsessing bout this.. which sucks since i'm at work.. gonna start pulling the trans tonight or pull it depending how it goes..

When i built it the springs/rollers fell out, i put them all back how i was sure they went, sprag turned one way, locked up the other. So what i'm wondering is if the sprag could lock up when it's supposed to freewheel and be spinning in the case causing the SHHHH sound..

OR... is there anything i could have messed up in the shift kit to cause the sprag to spin? can't see how they would happen.. but.. my brain is torturing me

It only ran for bout 30 seconds idling in gear so i'm praying i didn't hurt the case.. sooner i get it out sooner i will know..

 

[icetech]

P.S. either way once i find what's wrong i'm ordering a ultimate sprag from A&A so i don't worry bout it again.

 

[Dave6T4]

If you have your 727 out, try turning the input shaft backwards by hand. You will find it takes a lot more twist to do it; that is why engine rpm. drops with trans in Reverse. Check to see if set screw under sprag is tight. I commonly find them loose.

 

[icetech]

If you have your 727 out, try turning the input shaft backwards by hand. You will find it takes a lot more twist to do it; that is why engine rpm. drops with trans in Reverse. Check to see if set screw under sprag is tight. I commonly find them loose.

Will do.. i don't have it out yet... damn cold out today and i am out of propane and at work. I'm gonna tear it down to check everything once it's out anyway.. don't take long. soo annoyed. but at least i found it before putting the exhaust and steering and all that in

 

[icetech]

Pulled the pan and i have sparkles.. they look gold but that might be the fluid messing with me.. no chunks at all though. My big fear is taking it apart and not figuring why it broke.

Got the trans almost ready to drop but gonna wait til my sister is around, have dropped 2 cars onmyself, i'm a bit leary now.. and much safer.. cars are heavy..

 

[dvw]

I have plenty of spare parts.
Doug

 

[icetech]

Thanks, i have 1 spare trans that i bought for the 65 tailshaft.. hoping i have what i need. While i have it apart i am thinking of drilling the hole to supply oil to the sprag and i also saw a mod to drill a oil hole in the stator to oil the surface the direct drum rides on.. no sure that ones needed though.
Plan is to disassembly the trans and lay it out in order of how it's together and post some pics, i can't think of anything i missed/messed up putting it together so hopefully fresh eyes will help

This is the hole that page says to add..

 

[icetech]

Ok.. pulled it out and apart, took a ton of pictures and there is no point in posting them.. everything is 100% fine, not a single mark anywhere.. soo that leaves the converter, what my theory is at the moment is i messed up the tf-2 kit somehow..

My question is, does the valve body control fluid pressure to the converter? (not thought bout it before, always figured it was just a constant on old trans)
If so.. could i have messed up the kit to make it either over pressure or under pressure the converter? Didn't make a single bad sound in neutral/reverse/1st but soon as i hit the button for second the sound came in..

Only things i found wrong is the 4 clutch pack is .053 not .060 and the 5 pack is .090 not .075.. i thought i had them closer than that..

 

[icetech]

BTW.. thanks for the help Doug..

 

[Dave6T4]

090" is O.K. for front clutch pack (even up to .100"), but rear clutch pack should be down closer to .025"-.030". Twice the clearance on the rear clutch pack may be giving you your noise? I once rebuilt a 727 for a customer, and he called to say it was making a lot of noise and would hardly drive out of his garage. I grabbed a spare valve body, and went down and changed it out. We put it all back together, with no improvement. There was kind of a swishing/whistling noise coming from the front end area of the transmission, and he had to rev the engine up to get the car to move at all. I told the customer he had a bad converter, because it sounded like the unwanted noises were coming from it. He responded that he had just bought this new piece from a local speed shop. I told him to take it back, and see if he could get a replacement. He called back a couple of weeks later to say that the seller replaced his converter with another one. He had installed it, and his car worked fine, with no odd noises. So, it can happen; just because it is new, doesn't always mean it is good.