Coolant leak at Timing Chain Gasket-Your opinions please for a noob

[fuzzrighteous]

Hey Guys,

So yes i am a newb both to this forum and classic cars. I bought my first classic about 3 months ago, 67 Belvedere 4 dr with a 318 for a daily driver. All was running smooth until a small coolant leak developed. When inspecting the water pump/gasket, I found the leak actually coming from what i am guessing is the timing chain gasket on top driver side.

Do you guys recommend that I try out some radiator stop leak (Bar's Leak) or is this futile?

Should I just change the gasket and if so how big of job is this? Is this something I could handle myslef, with limited mechanic experience, or should I leave it to an expert?

I did do some research on the youtube and found this dude replacing his timing chain on a 318:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR0gElxzA7o

I feel I may be able to handle this until I get to that Harmonic Balancer thing to get timing cover off. Ofcourse I looks a lot easier when the engine is out of the car haha!

Thanks in advance!

Best,
Fuzz

 

[Dako]

If you know your 'lefty-Lucy, righty-tighty' rules, and can see what does and doesn't need to be removed to get down to the timing chain cover, then you can probably tackle this. Worst case...you get half way into it and decide it's more than you can do, simply bolt everything back together and take it to a shop. Even if things are leaking a bit, you should be able to safely get it there.

My suggestion? Get a buddy (2nd set of eyes and hands) that is a bit car savvy to help you out.

Another option is to start in the morning on a Friday or Saturday. Take photos as you progress. If you get stuck, hit up this post with some pics and questions. There is always somebody on that will pitch in on what to do next. This gives you the whole weekend to finish the job.

If you DO decide to tackle it, to get the harmonic balancer off, hit up your local 'chain' auto parts store. Most have loaner tools. You should be able to use a basic puller that will use either two or three bolts threaded into the balancer itself. A turning of the center bolt 'in', in the puller, will drive the balancer off the crank shaft. There will be a small 'key' in a slot on the shaft. DON"T LOSE THIS. it's what keeps the balancer in the correct position. To re-install, align the slots and install the key, then use the center bolt to 'pull' it back on to the crank shaft.

 

[fuzzrighteous]

Thanks for the tips and self esteem booster! I gonna try and handle this. BTW where is the best place to buy "non performance" parts? I m thinking if I go through with this I might want to change the water pump and stat too.

 

[Dako]

Any chain auto parts store should be fine. They are all offering decent warranties on parts these days. Glad to be of some help.

 

[fuzzrighteous]

So I thought I would journal my mechanical adventure:

I started with this dirty 318 leaking at the top driver side of the timing chain cover.

Here's the leak

I drained the raidiator then took the alternator, radiator, and fan off. I was hoping to get the fan off with taking out the radiator but no the bolts on the fan were to long.

Next I started unbolting the water pump. Some left over coolant leaked out, which caught me off guard. Also I took off the power steering...

I got the water pump off and inspected it. Looks pretty clean. There is no wiggle movement and it turns smooth with no noise when I hand spun it.

This is where I stopped at the timing chain cover. I dont have a big enough socket to take that "thing" off and the tool to take the hamonic balancer off. Also have to still remove the fuel pump too. Im such noob lol! until this Saturday yall...

 

[Dako]

"...This is where I stopped at the timing chain cover. I dont have a big enough socket to take that "thing" off and the tool to take the hamonic balancer off. Also have to still remove the fuel pump too. Im such noob lol! until this Saturday yall..."

That "thing" you refer to...you mean the crank pulley? It should have small (7/16?) bolts holding it on to the harmonic balancer. You will need to remove it so you can screw the puller bolts into the balancer. I believe the large Bolt going into the crank is a 1 1/4. When you borrow the puller, you may also be able to borrow a 1/2 drive socket set. A breaker bar should be used when getting this bolt loose. They can be stubborn and you may need to hit the bar with a hammer...or as I have done, brace the bar against the floor and 'tap' the starter.

 

[fuzzrighteous]

"...This is where I stopped at the timing chain cover. I dont have a big enough socket to take that "thing" off and the tool to take the hamonic balancer off. Also have to still remove the fuel pump too. Im such noob lol! until this Saturday yall..."

That "thing" you refer to...you mean the crank pulley? It should have small (7/16?) bolts holding it on to the harmonic balancer. You will need to remove it so you can screw the puller bolts into the balancer. I believe the large Bolt going into the crank is a 1 1/4. When you borrow the puller, you may also be able to borrow a 1/2 drive socket set. A breaker bar should be used when getting this bolt loose. They can be stubborn and you may need to hit the bar with a hammer...or as I have done, brace the bar against the floor and 'tap' the starter.

Thanks Dako! Yes I mean the crank pulley. I unfortunately did not get a chance to get to it this weekend. I did however pick up the timing chain cover gasket kit from NAPA and i borrowed a 3/4 in socket set (with a breaker bar) from my uncle. I feel like I should just invest in the shop manual at this point. I do have a couple of questions: when I take the crank pulley off will it affect the timing? and when put on the gaskets should I add some sort RVT sealant to it?
Thanks again dako!

 

[1toolguy]

Unless this is a low mileage engine I'd go ahead and spend a few extra bucks to swap out timing chain while it's apart. You can get a stock style timing set for about $20 and save possibly yourself some work in the future. It's a pretty straight forward job requiring no more tools that you already need but I wuld reccomend picking up a chilton or clymer manual to walk you through it.

 

[Dako]

Thanks Dako! Yes I mean the crank pulley. I unfortunately did not get a chance to get to it this weekend. I did however pick up the timing chain cover gasket kit from NAPA and i borrowed a 3/4 in socket set (with a breaker bar) from my uncle. I feel like I should just invest in the shop manual at this point. I do have a couple of questions: when I take the crank pulley off will it affect the timing? and when put on the gaskets should I add some sort RVT sealant to it?
Thanks again dako!

Timing won't be effected by removing the pulley...or the harmonic balancer. This is because your crankshaft is still in time with your camshaft due to the fact that they are connected by the timing chain.

Looking at the timing gear on the crank and the gear on the cam you should see an alignment mark on each. With the motor rotated to #1 cylinder at top dead center (TDC) these marks will align (face each other). If you decide to change the timing chain and gears while you are this far in there (some would insist on it depending on how many miles are on the motor) you would do it with the engine at TDC. This ensures your timing is correct. They come off and go on at the same time with the chain pre-installed on the gears. There is not enough play to get one off at a time...unless the chain is that wore out.

 

[67 coronet]

make sure you pull the fuel pump before trying to remove the cover,easy way to crack the cover if you dont.so far your doing great!plus the bolts that face downward,at the front of the oil pan.

 

[fuzzrighteous]

Thanks for all the responses guys. Im still contemplating on replacing the timing chain.

I found the timing chain at rockauto. They have two kinds-light duty and heavy duty. Is there a big difference?

Rockauto also has a repair manual. Its not a Chilton. Will it suffice?
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,carcode,1347139,parttype,10335

Thanks dudes!

 

[Dako]

Answers:

No and Yes.

 

[fuzzrighteous]

So I finally got a couple of weekends to put in some hours...
I figured now would be good time to clean all the grime off. Man there must have been decades of dirt and oil! Heres before and after...
Before

After and its still dirty!

Next I was trying to get this dam Crank bolt off. The crank wheel kept spinning so i was having difficulty getting the bolt off. This is were i got a bit retarded. There were two hole in the harmonic balancer so jammed this big *** screw driver in and step on the srew diver to keep it from turning as I tried to remove the crank bolt. It took alot of pressure! Probably dum of me to wear slippers too..duh

At this point it finally dawned on me that this might have not been the best way to stop the crank from turning. I started to worried that I might have damaged the harmonic balancer or even worse bent the crankshaft. Is that possible??? I later found this video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9LNht9EqEM&feature=fvwrel

 

[fuzzrighteous]

So I got the harmonic balancer off fairly easy with the puller. And took the timing cover off. I also made sure to take the fuel pump off before removing the timing cover.

I inspected the fuel pump and found this gunk in it. Is that normal? Can I just clean it out or do I need a new one?

Next I inspected the timing chain. I heard it was not supposed to have any slack at all. This one had a little play only on the passenger side so I'll order a new one...

Next I inspected the timing cover and found out why my gasket eroded. The channel was knicked up which I guess slowly made the gasket deteriorate.

heres the knicked up channel..

I tried to find a replacement timing cover for the 67' but couldnt find one. I read that anything after 70' would fit my 67'. Is this true?

I also spoke with a mechanic that said I could get the pitting fixed by a welder who can fill them in by helio welding some aluminum. Is this ok? The welder quoted me $30 buck which seem pretty cost effective!

I repainted the water pump and balancer with Duplicolor Hemi Orange. It matched up really good!

 

[69Bee]

I can't say for sure, but the late timing cover should physically fit, but you can't use the timing pad on the driver side. Your timing is on the tab bolted to the pass side of the cover. Also, if you get it welded for $30, you still need to have the surface milled flat again. I don't think the price includes that. I can get a new timing cover for about $60, and I would suggest that you install a new front seal and a wear sleeve HB-2124 for the balancer.

The chain doesn't look bad, but it is cheap insurance to replace it since you are in there. Don't forget to reinstall the oil slinger with the lip facing out.

Good luck

 

[coloradodave]

You're doing really good for a 'new' guy. Even painting parts! I'm impressed. Hang in there and make sure you line up the timing marks before you remove the old timing set. Looks like the old set has been replaced pretty recently.

 

[coloradodave]

Forgot. 'Stuff' in fuel pump. Could be sludge or grease (why??). Drain the oil and put your finger into the oil pan drain bolt hole and see if there's sludge there. Or/and pull a valve cover and check the upper end of the heads.

 

[Hemi Rebel]

I would say the chain that was in there was a replacement one. Wouldnt hurt to change it anyway since you are there. I would spend more than 20 bucks on one though. That is chinese parts prices. Chinese parts will f you in tha ***. The pitting in the cover could be cured by a light layer of rtv along with a new gasket if it isnt too pitted up.
Not sure about using the later style cover. If it bolts to the engine, it may just be a matter of using the matching later style water pump.
Or, yank that thing and drop in a big block!
Oh, and you might want to rethink your choice of footwear when working in the garage. I would hate to see anyone get hurt dropping something on their feet. It can happen in the blink of an eye. Think how the balancer would feel if you dropped that on a toe.

 

[fuzzrighteous]

Thanks all for the suggestions and votes of confidence. I did'nt do much this weekend; it's so dam hot in L.A. right now. I just cleaned the timing cover. The welder quoted me $30 for helio-welding the pits and grinding it down. We will see if its to good to be true this weekend when i pay him a visit.

I will also pull the valve cover off and give it a look.

I stopped wearing the thongs too! lol!

 

[67 coronet]

make sure to check for straitness after you have it welded.laying it flat on glass is a good way to check for any gaps.good job switching your shoe choice,hate to see you loose a toe after dropping a water pump.:headbang:doing great so far.