distributor and ballast

1965ply

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Hi have a 440 its on the Dyno, and we think we have a issue with the distributor and its a plug and play unit, i want to change to see if it makes any difference but the only spare i have is a Chrysler electronic one so i have to use the box with it as well, but do i have to use the ballast resistor to, motor is still on dyno so we want to make other run on it and compare
thanks
thanks
IMAG1047.jpg
 

Kern Dog

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Beeper, I'm saving those for my files. Thank you!
 

diesel_lv

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I may be incorrect, but I believe the necessity for using the ballast resistor is based on type of coil being used. Not the ignition module.
 

R413

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Read the wiring diagrams. 4 pin box has ballast for coil only. 5 pin box has ballast for box and coil.

Is it too much to ask for the 5 pin diagram to have wire colors on it? “New wire” doesn’t really help. What color goes where?

Also they don’t show the box needing a ground on the 5 pin diagram.
 

RJRENTON

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I may be incorrect, but I believe the necessity for using the ballast resistor is based on type of coil being used. Not the ignition module.

The ballast resistor limits the amperage the coil consumes AND the ignition module must switch therefore ALL THREE components must be compatible and coordinated. To randomly install non coordinated components will result in failure, usually of the ignition module......in spite of what your next door neighbor's cousin's sister's husband's best buddy says.....
BOB RENTON
 

Bee1971

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It’s on a dyno

Put a full 12 volts to the positive side of coil and let her spin
 

diesel_lv

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Screenshot_20220131-182829_Chrome.jpg
The ballast resistor limits the amperage the coil consumes AND the ignition module must switch therefore ALL THREE components must be compatible and coordinated. To randomly install non coordinated components will result in failure, usually of the ignition module......in spite of what your next door neighbor's cousin's sister's husband's best buddy says.....
BOB RENTON
Per Pertronix if using an electronic ignition on a V8, no resistor for a 1.5 ohm coil, supply full 12 volts. As for the ecu, keep ballast wired as it is, but pull coil 12v from 12v side of resistor.

Screenshot_20220131-182049_Chrome.jpg
 

Nacho-RT74

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Short answer yes you need the ballast resistor.

View attachment 1233235

In reference on this diagram a small correction or notation: Both ign circuits ( 1 and 2 ) are powered on both Ign switch stages while ballast is present and plugged. The difference is just what circuit, one or the other gets full 12 volts coming from ign switch while the other the reduced power throught the ballast.

-RUN stage: Ign1 circuit is full 12 volts while Ign2 circuit is reduced accordingly to the ballast specs and conditions.
-START stage: just right the opposite... full 12 volts at Ign2 circuit while Ign1 gets the reduced power.

You can see this effect on your cluster brake pilot light ( and oil light if standard cluster ) when it gets dimmered while cranking, since this light(s) are into the Ign1 circuit. This is one of the ways to determine you get a damaged/broken ballast in fact
 

RJRENTON

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EXCELLENT REPRESENTATION of the situation.....clear, concise, to the point information.....but there is always the faction that doesn't believe the presentation. There is always the PERTRONIX, MSD, MALLORY, etc. group that believes that uncoordinated components doesn't matter and substitution of mix matched parts is ok. These guys are usually the ones, along side of the road, hood up, wondering what went wrong.....just my opinion of course.
BOB RENTON
 

Bee1971

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Those Mopar ECU s and part numbers don’t exist anymore unless your digging deep

Those charts where Awesome , back in the day

Hops please don’t take that the wrong way

Anyways

The Chinese didn’t supply us with charts and graphs and part numbers

That’s the issue

Unless your running factory Chrysler part numbers on Coils , ECU s and Ballast

It’s honestly a crap shoot
 
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BeepBeepRR

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After installing an aftermarket Summit branded electronic ignition orange box on my friends Roadrunner. Took it for a drive and went about 20 miles it started to break up and run like crap. I pulled into a gas station and the coil was super hot to the touch. The car would not fire back up. I let the coil cool off for about 30 minutes. Tried to start the car again and no go. The coil was a yellow accel super stock coil or something like that.

Anyhow even after letting the car sit for that 30 minutes still no fire. I had to end up doing a jumper on the ballast resistor which was a single resistor to get the car to run. I never fully understood why it malfunctioned I assume it smoked the resistor. But bypassing it fixed the issue and was able to make it home without further issue. It was wired properly as per the schematics that came with the Summit branded ECU and Distributor kit. Maybe someone knows why it died.. I assume the ballast resistor failed causing full 12volts to the coil which overheated it. Correct me if I am wrong.
 

HALIFAXHOPS

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Those Mopar ECU s and part numbers don’t exist anymore unless your digging deep

Those charts where Awesome , back in the day

Hops please don’t take that the wrong way

Anyways

The Chinese didn’t supply us with charts and graphs and part numbers

That’s the issue

Unless your running factory Chrysler part numbers on Coils , ECU s and Ballast

It’s honestly a crap shoot
No sweat. I just deal with older OEM stuff most of the time so they still work for me.
You really have to watch the new stuff especially if it is marked "replaces xxxxxxx" Mopar orange boxes now are the worst offenders that come in the kits. The aftermarket ones are usually the same as the mopar black boxes.
 
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RJRENTON

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After installing an aftermarket Summit branded electronic ignition orange box on my friends Roadrunner. Took it for a drive and went about 20 miles it started to break up and run like crap. I pulled into a gas station and the coil was super hot to the touch. The car would not fire back up. I let the coil cool off for about 30 minutes. Tried to start the car again and no go. The coil was a yellow accel super stock coil or something like that.

Anyhow even after letting the car sit for that 30 minutes still no fire. I had to end up doing a jumper on the ballast resistor which was a single resistor to get the car to run. I never fully understood why it malfunctioned I assume it smoked the resistor. But bypassing it fixed the issue and was able to make it home without further issue. It was wired properly as per the schematics that came with the Summit branded ECU and Distributor kit. Maybe someone knows why it died.. I assume the ballast resistor failed causing full 12volts to the coil which overheated it. Correct me if I am wrong.

IS YOUR CIRCUMSTANCE POSSIBLY RELATED TO THE MIXING or MISMATCHING OF IGNITION SYSTEM COMPONENTS?? Ballast resistors, usually 99.5% of the time, fail open, which results in ZERO volts output. This is especially true of the solid back resistors (resistor wire not visable) where the element overheats to the point of failure. The Pertronix module, that fits inside the distributor, is a Hall effect switch, that has its limitations but if used in conjunction with the the RECOMMENDED coil, will provide satisfactory operation. Who manufactured the Summit ECU?? China or ? What are the Accel super stock coil's specs, especially primary winding resistance, which dictates, or not, the ballast resistor's value. Too low of a ballast resistor's value will allow too much current to flow, eventually overheating the coil.....and failure. Just my opinion of course.
BOB RENTON
 

BeepBeepRR

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IS YOUR CIRCUMSTANCE POSSIBLY RELATED TO THE MIXING or MISMATCHING OF IGNITION SYSTEM COMPONENTS?? Ballast resistors, usually 99.5% of the time, fail open, which results in ZERO volts output. This is especially true of the solid back resistors (resistor wire not visable) where the element overheats to the point of failure. The Pertronix module, that fits inside the distributor, is a Hall effect switch, that has its limitations but if used in conjunction with the the RECOMMENDED coil, will provide satisfactory operation. Who manufactured the Summit ECU?? China or ? What are the Accel super stock coil's specs, especially primary winding resistance, which dictates, or not, the ballast resistor's value. Too low of a ballast resistor's value will allow too much current to flow, eventually overheating the coil.....and failure. Just my opinion of course.
BOB RENTON
Very good breakdown. I will have to find the coil to get the exact model. The Summit ECU was the orange box. As far as who made it. Probably Chinesium. Here is the coil information.

COIL
Manufacturer's Part Number:
8140
Part Type:
Ignition Coils
Product Line:
ACCEL SuperStock Ignition Coils
Summit Racing Part Number:
ACC-8140
UPC:
743047007129
Coil Style:
Remote mount
Primary Resistance:
1.400 ohms
Coil Internal Construction:
Oil-filled
Coil Wire Attachment:
Female/Socket
Coil Color:
Yellow
Maximum Voltage:
42,000 V
Turns Ratio:
94:1
Secondary Resistance:
9.20K ohms
Mounting Bracket Included:
No
Coil Wire Included:
No
Ballast Resistor Included:
No
Coil Shape:
Round
Quantity:
Sold individually.
CARB EO Number:
D-221
Emissions:
California EO Approved

Now the ECU information. HERE are the install instructions.
Brand:
Proform Parts
Manufacturer's Part Number:
440-427
Part Type:
Electronic Distributor Conversion Kits
Product Line:
Proform Mopar Licensed Electronic Distributor Conversion Kits
Summit Racing Part Number:
PRO-440-427
UPC:
037995404278
Conversion Kit Trigger Style:
Magnetic
Ground:
Negative
Advance Type:
Vacuum and mechanical
Rev Limiter:
No
Volts:
12 V
Quantity:
Sold as a kit.

Here is the kit.
pro-440-427_xl.jpg
 
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Nacho-RT74

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Read the wiring diagrams. 4 pin box has ballast for coil only. 5 pin box has ballast for box and coil.

Is it too much to ask for the 5 pin diagram to have wire colors on it? “New wire” doesn’t really help. What color goes where?

Also they don’t show the box needing a ground on the 5 pin diagram.
when the 4 pins module came out, the secondary resistor was moved into the ECU and a single resistor ballast was matched to it

the wire used for the secondary resistor on 5 pins ECU/dual resistor ballast is green with red traces.

All ignition boxes need ground. Some aftermarket are wired (i.e. MSD ), but all stock form ECUs are chassis grounded still if is not mentioned ( Except Rev-N-Nator, which gets also a wire leaving out from the backing epoxy to be attached along with the ECU attaching screws to the firewall )
 

Nacho-RT74

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about the matching Ignition components, is a shame they are completelly outdated.
 

RJRENTON

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when the 4 pins module came out, the secondary resistor was moved into the ECU and a single resistor ballast was matched to it

the wire used for the secondary resistor on 5 pins ECU/dual resistor ballast is green with red traces.

All ignition boxes need ground. Some aftermarket are wired (i.e. MSD ), but all stock form ECUs are chassis grounded still if is not mentioned ( Except Rev-N-Nator, which gets also a wire leaving out from the backing epoxy to be attached along with the ECU attaching screws to the firewall )

The secondary resistor you noted, was eliminated BY A CIRCUIT RE-DESIGN, AND NOT MOVED TO THE ECU INTERIOR and several of the sensing circuit's (dwell or coil's charging time base network) increased to accomodate. Perhaps you should consider learning about how the internal components operate b4 offering an invalid opinion. GROUNDING IS FUNDAMENTAL AND HAS BEEN REITERATED HUNDREDS OF TIMES prior to this point.
BOB RENTON
 

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