First Alignment with new Suspension-Epic Fail!!!

[mrmolding]

I have my fingers crossed. Talk to an old shop owner moments ago. Seems like a one man show. The conversation with him is what got me wanting to give him a try. Told him the numbers from the first guys print out. He said “oh no. Son negative castor is for shopping carts. Bring your damn car over here and I’ll get your happy after I dig the old mopar wrenches out the bottom of the tool box and knock the dust off them”
Got an appointment for next Wednesday.

I think Kern Dog is right and you still need new offset bolts. You might want to get a set before your appointment.

 

[whayden2003]

I think Kern Dog is right and you still need new offset bolts. You might want to get a set before your appointment.

Original ones in the car already.

 

[mrmolding]

Original ones in the car already.

Awesome!!!

 

[whayden2003]

Awesome!!!

Should have reused them. But the PST bushing set came with new ones.

 

[Kern Dog]

I may have gotten lucky with my red car.

For those that have heard of “tolerances”, this is what I have pondered:
Since these cars were built with a range of acceptable deviation from perfect fit, it is possible that there were cars that were built where everything was built within the tolerances but at the far end of them. In clearer terms, there were cars built where the k member and other suspension mounting points were at the BAD end of the tolerances that it won’t align without changing a few things.
I have no experience as an engineer but the term “tolerance stack up” refers to all of the ranges of tolerances in all the components when compiled together.
Example:
The k member LCA mounts are 1/8” closer to center on each side yet still within tolerances. The Strut rod holes in the k member are 1/8” further outboard but still within tolerances. The UCA mounts are 1-16” further forward on the frame rails but within tolerances.
The car will never get the caster within range because all the tolerances stacked up to the negative.
Conversely….
You will maybe see a car where all the ducks are in a row and it gets more caster and aligns great without any special efforts.
I think I am the latter.
I do have the offset UCA bushings but with 5.5 degrees of caster, I think I was given a head start by some positive tolerance stack up.
The blue Plymouth pictured above has aftermarket Firm Feel UCAs that have added caster built into them. Here are the UCA bolts….front:

See how the bolt head is offset to the left/ outside? This is common and is how I set them as a default before going in for an alignment.
Now the rear… sorry for the difficult angle:

It also is adjusted to the outside, a setting that results in positive camber and negative caster in most cars with stock parts. The owner said it is aligned with 4 1/2 degrees of positive caster this way. Surely the aftermarket UCAs are responsible for the great numbers.

 

[mrmolding]

Should have reused them. But the PST bushing set came with new ones.

Just wanted to let you know this is nothing new with shops these days. I have a similar thread with my drama from a few months ago. The place I went to was recommended to me by five different people. I got on the road and my wheel was 20-30 degrees to the left and zero toe in. Oh well.

After Alignment Help!

 

[khryslerkid]

I have my fingers crossed. Talk to an old shop owner moments ago. Seems like a one man show. The conversation with him is what got me wanting to give him a try. Told him the numbers from the first guys print out. He said “oh no. Son negative castor is for shopping carts. Bring your damn car over here and I’ll get your happy after I dig the old mopar wrenches out the bottom of the tool box and knock the dust off them”
Got an appointment for next Wednesday.

Shopping cart is a good reference

The Caster numbers are what's screwing things up. Are the rear a-arm bushings all the way in as toward the engine compartment? They have to be there in order to gain more caster. Then you try to equal each side with the front bushings to get the camber at 0 or a little less (-). With stock bushings and parts it's "right there" to get the numbers.

Good luck Wednesday.

---

 

[whayden2003]

Shopping cart is a good reference

The Caster numbers are what's screwing things up. Are the rear a-arm bushings all the way in as toward the engine compartment? They have to be there in order to gain more caster. Then you try to equal each side with the front bushings to get the camber at 0 or a little less (-). With stock bushings and parts it's "right there" to get the numbers.

Good luck Wednesday.

---

No. Both control arms at the rear adjustment are close to the center of adjustment. The front adjustments seem to be farthest away from the engine compartment as they can be. I have a whole week before my appointment. I’m really considering buying a set of aftermarket uppers either the QA1’s or the SPC’s to make damn sure it’s only touched once more. It’s getting to be driving season in the south. Been to damn hot this year.

 

[whayden2003]

I may have gotten lucky with my red car.

View attachment 1534756

For those that have heard of “tolerances”, this is what I have pondered:
Since these cars were built with a range of acceptable deviation from perfect fit, it is possible that there were cars that were built where everything was built within the tolerances but at the far end of them. In clearer terms, there were cars built where the k member and other suspension mounting points were at the BAD end of the tolerances that it won’t align without changing a few things.
I have no experience as an engineer but the term “tolerance stack up” refers to all of the ranges of tolerances in all the components when compiled together.
Example:
The k member LCA mounts are 1/8” closer to center on each side yet still within tolerances. The Strut rod holes in the k member are 1/8” further outboard but still within tolerances. The UCA mounts are 1-16” further forward on the frame rails but within tolerances.
The car will never get the caster within range because all the tolerances stacked up to the negative.
Conversely….
You will maybe see a car where all the ducks are in a row and it gets more caster and aligns great without any special efforts.
I think I am the latter.
I do have the offset UCA bushings but with 5.5 degrees of caster, I think I was given a head start by some positive tolerance stack up.
The blue Plymouth pictured above has aftermarket Firm Feel UCAs that have added caster built into them. Here are the UCA bolts….front:

View attachment 1534765
See how the bolt head is offset to the left/ outside? This is common and is how I set them as a default before going in for an alignment.
Now the rear… sorry for the difficult angle:

View attachment 1534766

It also is adjusted to the outside, a setting that results in positive camber and negative caster in most cars with stock parts. The owner said it is aligned with 4 1/2 degrees of positive caster this way. Surely the aftermarket UCAs are responsible for the great numbers.

My old career in the collision industry taught me that for sure. I completely believe there are lucky cars that come out better than others. Say closer to the middle of all +/- measurements. And that’s in todays cars. No one can tell me that it wasn’t way worse in older cars. I have sat on the side lines of all the aftermarket sheet metal fighting. People complaining about fitment. I have also wandered. Do they just re use the old dies? How wore out are they? 100% agree with you that there are old classics that are just built more in “spec”

 

[khryslerkid]

No. Both control arms at the rear adjustment are close to the center of adjustment. The front adjustments seem to be farthest away from the engine compartment as they can be. I have a whole week before my appointment. I’m really considering buying a set of aftermarket uppers either the QA1’s or the SPC’s to make damn sure it’s only touched once more. It’s getting to be driving season in the south. Been to damn hot this year.

If the rear bushings are moved all the way in you might get the numbers you need. I'd try your new guy first.

 

[whayden2003]

If the rear bushings are moved all the way in you might get the numbers you need. I'd try your new guy first.

Thanks. I believe I may.