Help! Design of 1969 Charger 440 Rear Dual Turbo!

[dvw]

Statement #1
I am also lazy and don't want to change the motor too much. Let's discuss this decisions! With that statement alone you are biting off more than you can chew. If you think plumbing a turbo and tuning it to run well are easy you are sadly mistaken.
Statement #2;

1. Stock bottom end.
2. Around 9:1 with the stock heads.
3. Some sort of small performance cam. The engine doesn't sound stock, but is not real lopey.
4. Edelbrock Performer RPM with a Holley 750.

Engine only upgraded I will make:

1. Trickflow 240 to get some real performance. Please comment on this. An Edelbrock performer or E-Street have much lower flow. Anything else out there that is not out of this world on price? I need to spend big money on the Turbos, described below.
2. Holley Super EFI. 1200 CFM, blow through. I think that my situation needs the ability to plug away on a computer to find the best setup.
3. Holley Hyperspark. Same reason as in #1.

Buying heads,, expensive EFI and costly turbos with a stock bottom end? You are going down an expensive path without much previous experience.
Why not find a tried and true combo that someone has figured out?
Just my 2 cents.
Doug

 

[Curiousyellow71]

I can't say I am completely up to speed w all the different turbos. The first system we did was in 1996. we did a single turbo on a 318 in our 72 satellite with factory air. We didn't modify any sheetmetal on the car at all, fit under the hood, 2" hot side 3" tail pipe. Typically ran 9- 12 psi. Highest we ran was 18 psi. The hot side doesnt need to be overly large to make power. On ours...Basically had manifolds to single exhaust and the turbo was on the passenger side back by the fire wall. Most the Bb guys put the charger on the right or left front ahead of the valve covers.
We looked real hard at putting turbos right off the headers and using a scavenge pump, which perhaps isnt needed with proper turbo if you go oilless.
To control the heat we used header wrap on all the upper pipes and the hot side of the turbo...suprisingly ran cool.
Not really sure how accurate your dyno Sim 6 is if you don't know the engine details
The 78cc trick flows are going to raise your compression considerably...I think I would run 86cc edelbrocks for that reason, maybe even find a few more cc.. You can turn the boost up a couple psi and make up for a lot.

 

[BigLime]

I can't say I am completely up to speed w all the different turbos. The first system we did was in 1996. we did a single turbo on a 318 in our 72 satellite with factory air. We didn't modify any sheetmetal on the car at all, fit under the hood, 2" hot side 3" tail pipe. Typically ran 9- 12 psi. Highest we ran was 18 psi. The hot side doesnt need to be overly large to make power. On ours...Basically had manifolds to single exhaust and the turbo was on the passenger side back by the fire wall. Most the Bb guys put the charger on the right or left front ahead of the valve covers.
We looked real hard at putting turbos right off the headers and using a scavenge pump, which perhaps isnt needed with proper turbo if you go oilless.
To control the heat we used header wrap on all the upper pipes and the hot side of the turbo...suprisingly ran cool.
Not really sure how accurate your dyno Sim 6 is if you don't know the engine details
The 78cc trick flows are going to raise your compression considerably...I think I would run 86cc edelbrocks for that reason, maybe even find a few more cc.. You can turn the boost up a couple psi and make up for a lot.

Thanks.

What I don’t like is that the Edelbrock flow is quite a bit lower than the Trickflows.

 

[Curiousyellow71]

Thanks.

What I don’t like is that the Edelbrock flow is quite a bit lower than the Trickflows.

Without changing pistons I don't think you have much choice other then leaving the iron head or running a big chamber edelbrock...tf240 would take a really thick cometic or you will be running this on alchohol. Tf240 and those pistons is likely 10.6:1.
If your keeping your cam...your not even remotely close to fully utilizing the big head anyway. It would take around a .1 thick cometic to lower static compression on a TF240. You do that you loose quench and the efficiency of the combustion chamber...plus it will be really sensitive to detonation w a small cam.

 

[INTMD8]

If at any point in time you want me to exit, no worries, off I go.

Not trying to crush your hopes and dreams. Just the opposite. Trying to help so you are happy with the final result.

The goal of 650 can be easily met with stock heads. Turbo selection is 10x more important.

(doesn't matter how much more the heads flow if the turbos are undersized on the exhaust side and you end up with huge turbine drive pressure)

Second to turbo selection is going to be valve springs. You'll need some higher than normal exhaust seat pressures for this to work well.

It's been mentioned in this thread but to touch on the subject again....for your goals I think you would be way better off in all aspects, building a naturally aspirated engine.

So, cost, time, simplicity, weight and reliability.

Don't get me wrong, I love a good turbo combo and have done many myself. If that's what you want, go for it.

Just saying that I think building a naturally aspirated engine to meet your goal would be much less cost and effort.

For example-

This was a -very- budget build I did-

Jim Moran's 1970 Chevy Chevelle - Hot Rod Magazine

Here was the end result of the only new car I ever bought-

Desert Fox: Building a 1,370-HP 2007 Chevrolet Corvette Z06


As much fun as those are ^ at the end of the day I built a naturally aspirated engine for my own B-body and helping a friend with a naturally aspirated build as well.

If your goal is moderate, (and seems it is), no need to over complicate things when it's easy to build a combo with excellent heads and rather big displacement with a BBM.

Just my opinion

 

[BigLime]

Statement #1
I am also lazy and don't want to change the motor too much. Let's discuss this decisions! With that statement alone you are biting off more than you can chew. If you think plumbing a turbo and tuning it to run well are easy you are sadly mistaken.
Statement #2;

1. Stock bottom end.
2. Around 9:1 with the stock heads.
3. Some sort of small performance cam. The engine doesn't sound stock, but is not real lopey.
4. Edelbrock Performer RPM with a Holley 750.

Engine only upgraded I will make:

1. Trickflow 240 to get some real performance. Please comment on this. An Edelbrock performer or E-Street have much lower flow. Anything else out there that is not out of this world on price? I need to spend big money on the Turbos, described below.
2. Holley Super EFI. 1200 CFM, blow through. I think that my situation needs the ability to plug away on a computer to find the best setup.
3. Holley Hyperspark. Same reason as in #1.

Buying heads,, expensive EFI and costly turbos with a stock bottom end? You are going down an expensive path without much previous experience.
Why not find a tried and true combo that someone has figured out?
Just my 2 cents.
Doug

Thanks Doug,

I appreciate your comments.

 

[BigLime]

If at any point in time you want me to exit, no worries, off I go.

Not trying to crush your hopes and dreams. Just the opposite. Trying to help so you are happy with the final result.

The goal of 650 can be easily met with stock heads. Turbo selection is 10x more important.

(doesn't matter how much more the heads flow if the turbos are undersized on the exhaust side and you end up with huge turbine drive pressure)

Second to turbo selection is going to be valve springs. You'll need some higher than normal exhaust seat pressures for this to work well.

It's been mentioned in this thread but to touch on the subject again....for your goals I think you would be way better off in all aspects, building a naturally aspirated engine.

So, cost, time, simplicity, weight and reliability.

Don't get me wrong, I love a good turbo combo and have done many myself. If that's what you want, go for it.

Just saying that I think building a naturally aspirated engine to meet your goal would be much less cost and effort.

For example-

This was a -very- budget build I did-

Jim Moran's 1970 Chevy Chevelle - Hot Rod Magazine

Here was the end result of the only new car I ever bought-

Desert Fox: Building a 1,370-HP 2007 Chevrolet Corvette Z06


As much fun as those are ^ at the end of the day I built a naturally aspirated engine for my own B-body and helping a friend with a naturally aspirated build as well.

If your goal is moderate, (and seems it is), no need to over complicate things when it's easy to build a combo with excellent heads and rather big displacement with a BBM.

Just my opinion

Thank you for your input. You guys are all giving me lots to think about.

 

[Curiousyellow71]

My thoughts from the sounds of what you are willing to tackle(from your posts) I think you are underestimating any turbo build and the amount of work involved, but it sounds like you really what to play w fuel injection and boost. Buy some better heads, install efi and efi fuel tank and get a bolt on system. Since you are trying to avoid working on the short block...what ever it makes it makes. If it were me I would also do headers and a short single plane to make sure it all fits under the hood, I would guess you also need a better exhaust system. We run a tanks Inc fuel tank and efi style fuel pump in both our 69s, but we run double pumper holleys. FITech Fuel Injection 58011: Fuel Tank Kit for Dodge Charger - JEGS

Big Block MOPAR 440 – Single Charger | TorqStorm

 

[BigLime]

My thoughts from the sounds of what you are willing to tackle(from your posts) I think you are underestimating any turbo build and the amount of work involved, but it sounds like you really what to play w fuel injection and boost. Buy some better heads, install efi and efi fuel tank and get a bolt on system. Since you are trying to avoid working on the short block...what ever it makes it makes. If it were me I would also do headers and a short single plane to make sure it all fits under the hood, I would guess you also need a better exhaust system. We run a tanks Inc fuel tank and efi style fuel pump in both our 69s, but we run double pumper holleys. FITech Fuel Injection 58011: Fuel Tank Kit for Dodge Charger - JEGS

Big Block MOPAR 440 – Single Charger | TorqStorm

View attachment 1432064

Thanks! Some really good ideas!

i did look into the torque storm and some reviews are saying that they are only getting about 5 PSI max out of it. Do you know of anyone who has one?

I have been thinking about starting out with the heads and the EFI and then take it from there.

 

[WS23U1]

The ProChargers are very good and will fit under the hood easily. Turbos require a lot of work. If your fabrication skills are up to task go for it. If not consider the ProCharger or a n/a 500 inch motor or pay someone to do the turbo idea.

 

[Curiousyellow71]

Thanks! Some really good ideas!

i did look into the torque storm and some reviews are saying that they are only getting about 5 PSI max out of it. Do you know of anyone who has one?

I have been thinking about starting out with the heads and the EFI and then take it from there.

I believe you are correct on the torque storm and many of the entry level systems are going to be around 5 psi w a bolt on unit. I have a paxton from the early years that never got installed...but my friends/ acquaintances are either running home made turbo or roots style blowers. My experience w boost is w turbos, but am not up to speed w everything going on. Best info on centrifugal units I have absorbed is Tom Vaught who was in charge of Fords ecoboost program. Incredibly knowledgable, tangles w a few guys on the forums.Lol. He is over on the pontiac PY forum and has been a good Engineering contact for my brother.
The supercharger size really depends on your goals and how much your shortblock can handle. I would look at the Vortech if you want to go bigger, but as for a bolt on there aren't as many 440 options. But at least w centrifugal supercharger you can buy a kit or have one made to fit. Turbo systems take a lot of fabrication.
Here is some for you to reseach:
Supercharger Units

Paxton Mopar Big Block 440 Carbureted Supercharger Systems

Mopar 440 Engine Supercharger Installation - Mopar Muscle Magazine

 

[BigLime]

I believe you are correct on the torque storm and many of the entry level systems are going to be around 5 psi w a bolt on unit. I have a paxton from the early years that never got installed...but my friends/ acquaintances are either running home made turbo or roots style blowers. My experience w boost is w turbos, but am not up to speed w everything going on. Best info on centrifugal units I have absorbed is Tom Vaught who was in charge of Fords ecoboost program. Incredibly knowledgable, tangles w a few guys on the forums.Lol. He is over on the pontiac PY forum and has been a good Engineering contact for my brother.
The supercharger size really depends on your goals and how much your shortblock can handle. I would look at the Vortech if you want to go bigger, but as for a bolt on there aren't as many 440 options. But at least w centrifugal supercharger you can buy a kit or have one made to fit. Turbo systems take a lot of fabrication.
Here is some for you to reseach:
Supercharger Units

Paxton Mopar Big Block 440 Carbureted Supercharger Systems

Mopar 440 Engine Supercharger Installation - Mopar Muscle Magazine

Thanks for the information!

Yes, when I got my Charger I was shocked at how little room was under the hood. I grew up with Chevy, Olds, Pontiac which have tons more room.

My first car was a '70 Monte Carlo. To work on it I would take off the fan extension section (about 2' long) and then stand in the engine bay!

(This one is not mine)