And if you keep the original box and firm feel it, the off center play will always be there. Not so for the Borgeson, correct?
That is my understanding…last night I read everything I could find about firm feel and Borgeson. Magazine articles, on line articles, etc. I’m sure I will get the Borgeson/Bergman kit. I’ve went cheaper on things in the past, and they hardly ever turn out as well as just spend what it takes the first time !And if you keep the original box and firm feel it, the off center play will always be there. Not so for the Borgeson, correct?
I’ve done much the same, except for the torsion bars, waiting to see how I like the steering g change and the Bilstein shocks before I change the bars. I really want mine to drive better at 70 mph. I’ve already got wilwood front calipers with 11.75 discs. It stops nicely. And have upgraded to better headlights with a relay circuit, so night driving is much safer. I appreciate your input.Let me interject my 2 cents worth
You have had some wonderful suggestions that will make any car ready to road race
My situation was a little different
I have driven my car since I was 17 and was very hesitant to change what I loved about the car
However I did need to fix the wear and tear of 55 years
so a complete rebuild with new bushings, new pivots, new cam bolts
We welded PST stiffening plates to the bottom of the LCAs
We discovered bent strut rods (which when googled we discovered was common)
So new strut rods and I decided it was time for new Torsion bars as well (PST 1.03)
The biggest change I made was to go with a Steer & Gear Modern feel Steering gear box (PS)
Now when I drive the car it is better than new
Handles much better
It doesn't squeak or pop
and is a marked improvement without a radical change to the way the car felt to me for the last 44 years
you might want to upgrade some but not go overboard
I know it's not a quick process, but I'm anxiously awaiting your Borgeson post-install driving experience report. Please do let us know how you like it and give us a steering firmness ranking compared to rack and pinion. The early Borgeson mounting was problematic for some, which is what kept me from buying one years ago. However, from what I understand, most of those issues have all been solved and it should hopefully be a smooth install for you.
Are you planning to use the Berman coupler adapter that looks stock to avoid cutting the steering shaft?
Never heard of them, but I will check it out ! Thanks for the info !Have you talked to PowerSteering.com in Nixa, MO, can't be far from you if you're 417?
They rebuild boxes, not sure if they do modifications like FF. Worth a call, definitely save a bunch on shipping.
Here's my intial stab at a ranked estimation list (1=loosest feel w/greatest power assist):
1: Stock Mopar PS
2: Stock Mopar police package PS (cop feel, equivalent to Firm Feel Stage 1 mod)
3: Stock Mopar PS with added restriction washers at PS Pump (could be about the same as 2 above, not sure)
4: Firm Feel Stage 2 mod
5: Firm Feel Stage 3 mod
6: Firm Feel Stage 2 mod + Fast Ratio longer Pitman/Idler arms (I had this on my car and it was just a bit less effort than rack and pinion. I've since removed the fast ratio arms because the feel was a bit too tight and on off-ramps sometimes it felt twitchy if you put in a little too much steering input. Without the fast ratio arms the steering effort decreased by 50%. It was dramatic. In retrospect, I think I'd prefer FF Stage 1 with the fast ratio arms. My FF stage 2 alone feels great, but like Kern said, these stock boxes no matter how firmed up we make them, always suffer from a dead off-center spot from about the 11:30-12:30 position). That would be my one reason to eventually switch to the Borgeson.
7: Borgeson box
8: Rack and Pinion
9: Manual Steering
Never heard of them, but I will check it out ! Thanks for the info !
Was just about to call them. I’m 10 minutes from NIXA. The new unit on rockauto.com comes in at about $365 last I looked. I think it’s one for a later like gran fury, maybe. ..not sure about the rebuild if it doesn’t have better “feel” at 70…I talked with Marty at Powersteering.com earlier today. He does not make any changes that would impact steering feel. He rebuilds back to original specs and makes all adjustments and unit is ready for reinstallation with no adjustments intended by the owner. Turnaround time is about 2 weeks give or take currently.
Was just about to call them. I’m 10 minutes from NIXA. The new unit on rockauto.com comes in at about $365 last I looked. I think it’s one for a later like gran fury, maybe. ..not sure about the rebuild if it doesn’t have better “feel” at 70…
Sounds like you have direct experience with his work ? Is your box rebuilt by him ? I may go by and visit with him. Thanks again for the input.$375 from Powersteering.com We talked about feel. He reminded me that a lot of "feel" issues could be caused by a lack of regular adjustment of the box, as these things to wear a bit over time. I would certainly use him versus going to RockAuto or another aftermarket supplier.
Sounds like you have direct experience with his work ? Is your box rebuilt by him ? I may go by and visit with him. Thanks again for the input.
I “heard” that Firm Feel was 3 + months behind, I have looked at Steer and Gears website, their prices and shipping plan is appealing. So what it boils down to for me is $400 for a rebuild or Steer and Gear. The box is still 1957 design technology, heavy and big. For $900 the Borgeson by Bergman Autocraft is new tech, lighter, smaller, and better road feel. No need for Fast ratio pitman or idler. My $ never came easy, but I want the best value . I’m leaning heavy to the Borgeson. I have hooker 1 7/8 tube headers on mine that are 20 years old. I don’t see any way to get the old box out with the header in place, maybe pulling the torsion bar would let it drop out. I’ve got some rear end work to get done next week, and then it’s the box !No, I have no experience with him. My steering box leaks heavily from both the shafts, so at minimum I need a rebuild. Wary of sending my box out I started looking for someone local, or at least closer and I found his website, checked a couple of other forums and then called and talked with Marty. I have been leaning towards a Firm Feel, but after also talking with Steer and Gear today they are probably the route I will take. Appears their product is similar in form and function to FF, but closer in distance to me and can do the job in less than a month and at the same price as a stock rebuild. I may opt for a quick ratio pitman/idler arm down the road after I see how my RR handles with the box upgrade. Sorry that's not helpful to me but talking with the vendors has helped me make a decision. Now if I can just get the box out of the 69 383 without taking the Hedman headers off. Gotta tear down the whole front end for a rebuild so I'll have the bars out anyway, hopefully it will slip out the bottom, but looks like it will be tight.
wow, that's great. If you've got no slop, don't mess with it and enjoy it. My FF stage 2 I bought direct from FF and it has about 8000 miles on it. It's had the off center dead spot from day 1 and I was told by them that the design of the stock box makes it impossible to dial out. I'd love to be proven wrong with mine.I need to try a FF stage II, sounds interesting.
I´ve got a FF stage 3 box together with sector support and solid adjuster sleeves and its just amazing. (Original ratio arms.)
I would also place it at 5 on that list. I know Stock Mopar PS/Manual and the FFsIII is right there in the middle.
Though I am wondering about the slop.....I had that slop about 11:30-12:30 position Before I sent my box to FF but after the rebuild there is absolutely no slop left and I was very picky when testing this as this was my sole reason to rebuild my box.
I'm sure it's in the Borgeson thread and others please confirm what I'm saying, but to the OP, if you go the Borgeson route, please consider addressing the power steering pump. I'm pretty sure I've read in the early Borgeson box installs that the box overworks the power steering pump with too much pressure buildup and there is some sort of PS Pump mod required to address this. There won't be a leak on the 1st day or first week, but I've read one account of the pump housing/fitting leaking about 8 months after install (don't know how many miles driven). Ask Borgeson about it and they may sell the mod, not sure.
I'm curiously watching this thread to hear about the post-install impressions of the OP and would like to know yours as well in terms of steering effort/feel comparison. I've never driven a car with a Borgeson box, but I've heard some say the feel is heavier than the FF stage 2 power steering, but slightly less than rack and pinion. What's your impression? Maybe we should rank these on a 1-10 scale with 1 being the least steering effort with most assist (i.e. stock mopar power steering) and 10 being the highest steering effort with least assist (manual steering).
Here's my intial stab at a ranked estimation list (1=loosest feel w/greatest power assist):
1: Stock Mopar PS
2: Stock Mopar police package PS (cop feel, equivalent to Firm Feel Stage 1 mod)
3: Stock Mopar PS with added restriction washers at PS Pump (could be about the same as 2 above, not sure)
4: Firm Feel Stage 2 mod
5: Firm Feel Stage 3 mod
6: Firm Feel Stage 2 mod + Fast Ratio longer Pitman/Idler arms (I had this on my car and it was just a bit less effort than rack and pinion. I've since removed the fast ratio arms because the feel was a bit too tight and on off-ramps sometimes it felt twitchy if you put in a little too much steering input. Without the fast ratio arms the steering effort decreased by 50%. It was dramatic. In retrospect, I think I'd prefer FF Stage 1 with the fast ratio arms. My FF stage 2 alone feels great, but like Kern said, these stock boxes no matter how firmed up we make them, always suffer from a dead off-center spot from about the 11:30-12:30 position). That would be my one reason to eventually switch to the Borgeson.
7: Borgeson box
8: Rack and Pinion
9: Manual Steering
Those who have driven the Borgeson box, is my ranking shown for the Borgeson correct? Please re-order these as appropriate if you disagree. My intent is to not only educate myself, but also to set accurate expectations for the OP.
Update on my steering issues…I ordered a complete Borgeson/Bergman autocraft kit. Have not received it yet. Also have a simple power steering cooler on the way. I’ll update this thread with issues I might have getting the old box out with my 20+ year old Hooker headers. I’m hoping to take the header off the engine, remove battery and tray, maybe lift engine and get steering box out through the opening left from the battery. We’ll see.
When we replaced my steering box, the easiest way to do it was dropping the K frame
you don't have to mess with the headers at all
Jack the car up prop the motor up and drop the K-frame
About the hardest part will be separating the ball joint from the upper control arm