LemonWedge 470 build thread

[dvw]

Install the cover with the gasket and a couple of bolts close to the cam C/L. See if the cam moves fore aft. If it won't move take .005" off the button and check again. The cover isn't a precisiion part. Sneak up on it. When prying on the cam, the cover will flex so make sure you watch it.
Doug

 

[LemonWedge]

Thanks for the tip, Doug. I’m at a point where I can identify movement in the cam without any evidence of deflection at the timing cover (checked with a dial indicator).

More progress To report.
Short block somewhat complete. still need to check cam timing and come to a final spot that I’m satisfied with on cam end play. I may be there, just not convinced yet. I installed the cam straight up. But as said, I’m yet to verify with my degree wheel.
Rod journals ended up with .0028 clearance. .0030 on the mains. Crank endplay was at .008. All in all, it’s going together on the somewhat loose side. Probably pretty good numbers for a motor that will see 7k+ RPM.
The 470 (Chevy rod on a Chrysler journal) side clearance ended up with a largest clearance of .075 on the 1/2 journal, and a tightest of .067 on the 7/8 journal. I’m not sure what to make of that, but it sounds about typical from what I’ve read.

Next steps will be to degree the cam, install the main girdle assembly, and mock up for pushrod length. I’m hopeful my current pushrods will work, but understand that’s a needle in a haystack chance.

 

[LemonWedge]

So I went ahead and got some blue plastigage to see if it was useful on the cam endplay question. I understand that there is a deflection issue with the cover. Probably some compression in the bearing on the back of the cam gear as well. Figured it couldn't hurt to try though. I did get some crush out of the plastigage, so I’m more comfortable now than prior. If I take the reading literal, it looks like roughly .012 (a little too much). When I figure in a little fudge factor for deflection of the cover and compression of the timing gear bearing, I’m satisfied that I’m somewhere north of .007, and south of .011. At the very worst I’m a few tenths away from that and willing to say “send it”, unless someone feels compelled to talk me out of it.

Also, if you’ve been following this thread, you may remember my post reporting that my machinist was less than bullish on his ability to offset grind my crank and then land at zero deck with a Frankenstein combo of parts. Well, he should have been more confident. His crank journal with my collection of parts hung on it couldn’t be more zero.

 

[dvw]

There isn't very much if any thrust when using a roller cam. With that amount of endplay the roller wheels aren't going to fall off the edge of the cam. Run it.
Doug

 

[LemonWedge]

main girdle in place……

 

[malex]

main girdle in place……

View attachment 1429417

—-
It’s going together LW, nice to see. That girdle looks lots like mine, which came from 440 Source, along with the aluminum main caps and lightweight crank. I guess it’s been 8 years since I put mine together and I still have one new left - left over piston. My kit came with 5 left and 3 right pistons. Lol/WTF. I called them and well don’t you know, the correct piston was still on their shelf and they sent it right out. I didn’t like the fit of my frost plugs like you’re using, they seemed somewhat loose so I changed up to the ones with more cup to them and those fit tighter for my liking. I was worried about possibly loosing one. The things a guy worries about during the building process. That’s going to be one fine build when your finished LW! . Low 10’s!

 

[LemonWedge]

thanks Malex. It is a source girdle. I had to clearance the stud holes slightly on the #4 cap. When I put it on, it was snug to the studs on the front Side. I didn’t like that so I opened them up slightly. Like you, I believe in building my own stuff. Even though I don’t do it every day and have the experience of some, I know I’m going to look harder at every fastener, and think through every item, sweating the little stuff on my own engine more than any machine shop would.
I’m pretty happy with what Ive got going on here so far. I am a bit uneasy with the rod side clearance thing, but everything I read says it’s no big deal and this basic 470 combo tends to live a long & happy life.
Low 10’s would be excellent. I’m trying not to have any expectations other than it running strong for a good long time like my 451 did. But secretly I may have set the over / under at 10.50 & 127.

 

[malex]

thanks Malex. It is a source girdle. I had to clearance the stud holes slightly on the #4 cap. When I put it on, it was snug to the studs on the front Side. I didn’t like that so I opened them up slightly. Like you, I believe in building my own stuff. Even though I don’t do it every day and have the experience of some, I know I’m going to look harder at every fastener, and think through every item, sweating the little stuff on my own engine more than any machine shop would.
I’m pretty happy with what Ive got going on here so far. I am a bit uneasy with the rod side clearance thing, but everything I read says it’s no big deal and this basic 470 combo tends to live a long & happy life.
Low 10’s would be excellent. I’m trying not to have any expectations other than it running strong for a good long time like my 451 did. But secretly I may have set the over / under at 10.50 & 127.

—-
When I built mine I said that 10.50’s would be beyond my expectations. Sounds familiar.

 

[Gunner1]

I’ve seen circle burner motors with piston guided rods that ran more side clearance than that. Just think of it as piston squirters. side clearance helps hold the oil wedge on the rod bearings. If your bearings look a bit overloaded then you can just up the volume on the pump.

 

[66Satellite47]

So I went ahead and got some blue plastigage to see if it was useful on the cam endplay question. I understand that there is a deflection issue with the cover. Probably some compression in the bearing on the back of the cam gear as well. Figured it couldn't hurt to try though. I did get some crush out of the plastigage, so I’m more comfortable now than prior. If I take the reading literal, it looks like roughly .012 (a little too much). When I figure in a little fudge factor for deflection of the cover and compression of the timing gear bearing, I’m satisfied that I’m somewhere north of .007, and south of .011. At the very worst I’m a few tenths away from that and willing to say “send it”, unless someone feels compelled to talk me out of it.

Also, if you’ve been following this thread, you may remember my post reporting that my machinist was less than bullish on his ability to offset grind my crank and then land at zero deck with a Frankenstein combo of parts. Well, he should have been more confident. His crank journal with my collection of parts hung on it couldn’t be more zero.
View attachment 1429292

View attachment 1429296x1 /

Back in the day I used a roller bearing button. I also reinforced the OEM timing cover with a piece of 2" x1/8 flat stock on the outside. I checked the inside every time I took the motors apart. The small rub marks assured me things were OK. This was with my mushroom cam and a couple of rollers. IIRCC the measured thrust was about .005.

 

[malex]

So I went ahead and got some blue plastigage to see if it was useful on the cam endplay question. I understand that there is a deflection issue with the cover. Probably some compression in the bearing on the back of the cam gear as well. Figured it couldn't hurt to try though. I did get some crush out of the plastigage, so I’m more comfortable now than prior. If I take the reading literal, it looks like roughly .012 (a little too much). When I figure in a little fudge factor for deflection of the cover and compression of the timing gear bearing, I’m satisfied that I’m somewhere north of .007, and south of .011. At the very worst I’m a few tenths away from that and willing to say “send it”, unless someone feels compelled to talk me out of it.

Also, if you’ve been following this thread, you may remember my post reporting that my machinist was less than bullish on his ability to offset grind my crank and then land at zero deck with a Frankenstein combo of parts. Well, he should have been more confident. His crank journal with my collection of parts hung on it couldn’t be more zero.
View attachment 1429292

View attachment 1429296

LW. I wondered what your deck was at. Mine is .001 - .0015 ish. I was running a .039 gasket with that. Then when I had the heads off I couldn’t get any .039, only .036 was available so in they went.
It liked it.
Setting my cam in at 108 instead of 110 put me in the safe zone for P to V clearance, it was a tad close. I think I mentioned that before.
Low 10’s.

 

[LemonWedge]

I’ plan to stiffen the timing cover similar to your description, ‘66.

LW. I wondered what your deck was at. Mine is .001 - .0015 ish. I was running a .039 gasket with that. Then when I had the heads off I couldn’t get any .039, only .036 was available so in they went.
It liked it.
Setting my cam in at 108 instead of 110 put me in the safe zone for P to V clearance, it was a tad close. I think I mentioned that before.
Low 10’s.

My deck has been cut .020. This is why my crank ended up at 3.875, instead of 3.915, and I’m at 468 cubes, instead of 470. I have .040 Cometic head gaskets. Comes in at 11.3:1.
I set up my degree wheel last night, but haven’t looked at cam timing events yet. I also have some machinists clay and plan on checking P/V at the same time I mock up for pushrod length.
looking at how well your car runs, I am already thinking of advancing it a little…. But I think my cam is also a little short of yours in terms of duration. It’s not real long at 263* on the intake side. We’ll see if the P/V thing makes me move it or not. Otherwise, I may leave it where it’s at and see how it runs for a season.

 

[LemonWedge]

LW. I wondered what your deck was at. Mine is .001 - .0015 ish.

Perhaps I misunderstood your question, Malex…. Piston ended up at exactly zero if that’s what your wondering.

 

[dvw]

Piston above deck isn't an issue as long as you have piston to valve and the correct gasket for piston to head. I don't run mine that close. One of the reasons is the compression ratio goes to the moon. Even with a .060" gasket, flat top, and 10cc valve reliefs it's 15.1-1. I could easily get to 16.5-1
Doug

 

[67MPRFAN]

Yep wish I asked to have mine a little negative now

 

[LemonWedge]

Yep wish I asked to have mine a little negative now

Can You expand? Compression / pump gas issues ?

 

[Gunner1]

I’ plan to stiffen the timing cover similar to your description, ‘66.



My deck has been cut .020. This is why my crank ended up at 3.875, instead of 3.915, and I’m at 468 cubes, instead of 470. I have .040 Cometic head gaskets. Comes in at 11.3:1.
I set up my degree wheel last night, but haven’t looked at cam timing events yet. I also have some machinists clay and plan on checking P/V at the same time I mock up for pushrod length.
looking at how well your car runs, I am already thinking of advancing it a little…. But I think my cam is also a little short of yours in terms of duration. It’s not real long at 263* on the intake side. We’ll see if the P/V thing makes me move it or not. Otherwise, I may leave it where it’s at and see how it runs for a season.

You most likely already know this. But when you clay the valve notches make sure to measure the radial clearance too. I’ve seen plenty of pistons with enough depth but the valves edge only had less than 030. What with piston rock on tdc and valve guide clearance that’s not enough. Usually only on motors with oversized valves. Mine had 2.14 coming out and going in. Enjoying this build.

 

[dvw]

You most likely already know this. But when you clay the valve notches make sure to measure the radial clearance too. I’ve seen plenty of pistons with enough depth but the valves edge only had less than 030. What with piston rock on tdc and valve guide clearance that’s not enough. Usually only on motors with oversized valves. Mine had 2.14 coming out and going in. Enjoying this build.

I just went thru this with my build. The pistons were misordered with 2.19" pockets instead of 2.25". I sent the previous piston sheet in. Assumed (dumb) that since the notch depth measured correctly they were correct. Had the short block all built when I noticed it. Had to pull it all apart. Remove the Spirolox. Then machine the pistons an additional .050" for radial clearance.
Doug

 

[67MPRFAN]

Can You expand? Compression / pump gas issues ?

Compression is a little over 12.1. I tried pump gas when I was working all the bugs that comes with a new build, 93 octane and timing locked out around 32 degrees didn't like it. So since I'm working on track times straight race gas it sounds better

 

[LemonWedge]

Got the short block buttoned up yesterday. I did apply a .060 washer to the front of the cover at the cam location. This snugs up nicely to the cast aluminum water pump housing, and should help limit cover deflection, and thus cam end play.

I took my amatuer skills to the degree wheel and went over both cam opening and closing events at .050, and centerline on the #1 intake lobe multiple times. Each time, I found that the Howards stick is installed 2* advanced at 102*. Cam card says 104*. I’m going to roll with it as is unless P/V check dictates otherwise.

My favorite recent tool purchase is this handy little digital torque adapter that turns any ratchet into a torque wrench. Real easy to use and allows you to use your breaker bar as a torque wrench, making accurately tightening fasteners a little easier.

Im reusing my melling HV oil pump. All the passages look clear here. Should be good to go. With the addition of the girdle plate, I did have to adjust the angle of the pickup to both clear the tray, and to get it back to within 3/8” of the pan.

On to the topside.