Lightweight fasteners?

[1 MEAN66]

If someone was going to replace regular steel fasteners with lightweight stuff (aluminum/titanium), where you would put the lighter fasteners? Keeping in mind that aluminum/titanium are not as strong as steel in the same specific size.

Bolting things together. I put on plastic bumpers, made lightweight aluminum brackets to attach them, and found alum. carriage bolts. Could do the same on other "stuff" (hinge attachment -doors, hood, trunk, actually anything that attaches anything) but the weight on savings on just changing fasteners???

 

[Cranky]

One of the things I haven't done was to hole out the window crank arms......wow, how did I miss that lol

 

[fullmetaljacket]

One of the things I haven't done was to hole out the window crank arms......wow, how did I miss that lol

Here's the best flicks I could muster up of the STOCK STEEL driveshaft. LOL. By the way, that's my aluminum door in the background of the second picture. OOOhhps, did I let that one out? LOL.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

Here's the best flicks I could muster up of the STOCK STEEL driveshaft. LOLView attachment 1224610View attachment 1224611

As mean'66 mentioned, there isn't much at all to gain from weight removal by addressing fasteners only. To each their own, but fasteners are just only one minute part of a much larger diet program. I found that the largest things to remove or replace (Factory or not, store bought or handmade) were the easiest. The hard part is where the elusive ounces are harder to find and extract.

 

[rmchrgr]

A new year and a new weight loss thread! I do miss the one on that other forum. Maybe we can keep this one going.

Agree that lightweight fasteners are probably not the most efficient or cost-effective method of shedding weight and that big ticket items should get the boot way before you start thinking about titanium bolts. You could go through the entire car and trim excess threads on bolts that protrude beyond the nut that retains them. LOTS of places to do that and way cheaper ($0) than anything titanium. Just requires time and effort and a keen eye. Bet you'd save a bunch doing that, it adds up.

If you don't care about how things look, get race-weight fiberglass body parts, gut the interior and break out the hole saw and make holes in everything that isn't structural.

However, if you're wanting to retain a more "factory" look, listen to Mr. fmj here, he'll amaze and confound you with all his strategies and machinations.

Since we're on a B body site, I have not weighed my '68 Coronet but I'd bet it’s at least 3,600 without me. I can feel the mass from the seat. The B bodies are hard to trim the fat on, they’re big cars. If I ever decide to make it light, titanium bolts would be at the very bottom of the list.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

A new year and a new weight loss thread! I do miss the one on that other forum. Maybe we can keep this one going.

Agree that lightweight fasteners are probably not the most efficient or cost-effective method of shedding weight and that big ticket items should get the boot way before you start thinking about titanium bolts. You could go through the entire car and trim excess threads on bolts that protrude beyond the nut that retains them. LOTS of places to do that and way cheaper ($0) than anything titanium. Just requires time and effort and a keen eye. Bet you'd save a bunch doing that, it adds up.

If you don't care about how things look, get race-weight fiberglass body parts, gut the interior and break out the hole saw and make holes in everything that isn't structural.

However, if you're wanting to retain a more "factory" look, listen to Mr. fmj here, he'll amaze and confound you with all his strategies and machinations.

Since we're on a B body site, I have not weighed my '68 Coronet but I'd bet it’s at least 3,600 without me. I can feel the mass from the seat. The B bodies are hard to trim the fat on, they’re big cars. If I ever decide to make it light, titanium bolts would be at the very bottom of the list.

Oh no! look who the light breezes brought in. LOL. This guy is thus far more realistic then I could ever be. I'll say fill up those tires with Helium and he'll say no, air is more stable. oh yeah, he's right. I'll say remove those headlights and he'll say no, what happens at night, oh yeah he's right. LOL.
Rmchgr you are more than welcome to bring that beautiful car to Area 51 and set it on the vehicle scales to help you find where to scale back on the pounds.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

Oh no! look who the light breezes brought in. This guy is thus far more realistic then I could ever be. I'll say fill up those tires with Helium and he'll say no, air is more stable. oh yeah, he's right. I'll say remove those headlights and he'll say no, what happens at night, oh yeah he's right. LOL.
Rmchgr you are more than welcome to bring that beautiful car to Area 51 and set it on the vehicle scales to help you find where to scale back on the pounds.

Remember folks, there are different grades of aluminum or titanium fasteners just like steel. T-2024, T-6061 and T-7075 for Aluminum and 6AL4V for Titanium. They are high grade strong non corrosive stuff, but should only be considered for safe places on the car. Other cheaper grades can help keep that license plate up.

 

[rmchrgr]

Oh no! look who the light breezes brought in. LOL. This guy is thus far more realistic then I could ever be. I'll say fill up those tires with Helium and he'll say no, air is more stable. oh yeah, he's right. I'll say remove those headlights and he'll say no, what happens at night, oh yeah he's right. LOL.
Rmchgr you are more than welcome to bring that beautiful car to Area 51 and set it on the vehicle scales to help you find where to scale back on the pounds.

Ohh, pshaw. You have more knowledge in your pinky than I have total so don't be so modest.

I will take you up on the offer to weigh the car, I'd be curious to see where it ends up. I've had the idea that switching to the 4 speed and bucket seats over the OE bench seat column shift configuration may have shaved a few pounds but then adding fully-welded frame connectors negated any gains. The flywheel probably weighs the same or more than a 10-11" street converter but there's no trans cooler and much less fluid inside the unit with the manual. Conversely, the Hurst shifter is not light. It's an interesting question whether a 4 speed is lighter than an automatic.

Since it's hard for me not to try and save weight, there are a few weight-conscious things things on the car - lightweight Denso 60A alternator, aluminum radiator, aluminum water pump and intake, radio delete and elimination of any excess wiring throughout the car.

The clutch is housed in a factory aluminum bell and is actuated by a hydraulic throwout bearing so there's no mechanical linkage, only an aluminum slave cylinder with a plastic reservoir and the fluid lines. The whole setup is minimal and fairly light.

For the EFI, aluminum hard lines and socketless hose with aluminum AN fittings were employed through out. There's a return line running the length of the car so it's tough to say whether having two aluminum lines is any lighter than a single, steel fuel line. Using lightweight hose and fittings is a good way to save weight but it does get expensive.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

Ohh, pshaw. You have more knowledge in your pinky than I have total so don't be so modest.

I will take you up on the offer to weigh the car, I'd be curious to see where it ends up. I've had the idea that switching to the 4 speed and bucket seats over the OE bench seat column shift configuration may have shaved a few pounds but then adding fully-welded frame connectors negated any gains. The flywheel probably weighs the same or more than a 10-11" street converter but there's no trans cooler and much less fluid inside the unit with the manual. Conversely, the Hurst shifter is not light. It's an interesting question whether a 4 speed is lighter than an automatic.

Since it's hard for me not to try and save weight, there are a few weight-conscious things things on the car - lightweight Denso 60A alternator, aluminum radiator, aluminum water pump and intake, radio delete and elimination of any excess wiring throughout the car.

The clutch is housed in a factory aluminum bell and is actuated by a hydraulic throwout bearing so there's no mechanical linkage, only an aluminum slave cylinder with a plastic reservoir and the fluid lines. The whole setup is minimal and fairly light.

For the EFI, aluminum hard lines and socketless hose with aluminum AN fittings were employed through out. There's a return line running the length of the car so it's tough to say whether having two aluminum lines is any lighter than a single, steel fuel line. Using lightweight hose and fittings is a good way to save weight but it does get expensive.

It all gets expensive in the end or the start depending on how you look at it. I'm just cheap with time and yet extravagant with pennies to buy back that time if that makes any sense. Now if I had the time and you left that bad boy with me for a month or two in Area 51's cellar, you'd come back and find it floating and up against the ceiling like a helium balloon. LOL.
All kidding' aside and not to stray from fasteners, your car must be fun as it is. You wouldn't want the shake, rattle and cold nest that the '65 has become. There's still some little things to be had that have just come on the market like an all aluminum dual reservoir master cylinder from Force 10 brake works. Nice looking piece I may say so myself and lighter by four full pounds from its cast iron sibling. It may not look exactly stock, but very close enough and deceiving to the untrained eye used to looking at the bigger picture.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

Ohh, pshaw. You have more knowledge in your pinky than I have total so don't be so modest.

I will take you up on the offer to weigh the car, I'd be curious to see where it ends up. I've had the idea that switching to the 4 speed and bucket seats over the OE bench seat column shift configuration may have shaved a few pounds but then adding fully-welded frame connectors negated any gains. The flywheel probably weighs the same or more than a 10-11" street converter but there's no trans cooler and much less fluid inside the unit with the manual. Conversely, the Hurst shifter is not light. It's an interesting question whether a 4 speed is lighter than an automatic.

Since it's hard for me not to try and save weight, there are a few weight-conscious things things on the car - lightweight Denso 60A alternator, aluminum radiator, aluminum water pump and intake, radio delete and elimination of any excess wiring throughout the car.

The clutch is housed in a factory aluminum bell and is actuated by a hydraulic throwout bearing so there's no mechanical linkage, only an aluminum slave cylinder with a plastic reservoir and the fluid lines. The whole setup is minimal and fairly light.

For the EFI, aluminum hard lines and socketless hose with aluminum AN fittings were employed through out. There's a return line running the length of the car so it's tough to say whether having two aluminum lines is any lighter than a single, steel fuel line. Using lightweight hose and fittings is a good way to save weight but it does get expensive.

Yes, the buckets are somewhat lighter compared to the bench. Some benches could be a 100 Lbs or more depending on their structure. Solid back benches being the lightest and split/or fold down armrest types being the heaviest.
I could be wrong but 4 speeds can be a little lighter than a 727 even in full iron new process dress code with all its operating hardware but for sure lighter with the new aluminum new process housings that are out in the market. I have forgotten how heavy an all wet 727 is and I should have documented it, but mine was heavy being that it has front and rear pumps in it.

 

[GTX JOHN]

I was keeping it under wraps during its bad boy nights in the civilian theater of operations, but as they say, the cat's got to come out of the bag at some time. 2990 Lbs WITHOUT me in it.
All metal/s, no fiberglass, carbon fiber, hence the Fullmetaljacket identification code. I want to achieve 2800 Lbs with all metal parts to reflect the fiberglass '65 AFX scale numbers. This practice can be applied to any other car with careful eyes as far where, why and how.
For example, GTX John here has achieved some amazing numbers with is '70 GTX. Lost pounds using a group of hand selected OEM parts and bolts. He probably has a fiberglass bumper, but nothing more than that. Different supply houses differed in the weight of their parts by design or metal density, so only a mad scientist could dive down that rabbit hole. GTX John has come down to 3100 Lbs or so.

3100 Lbs with dana 60 and 400 with "stock" cast iron intake manifold.
Stock Cam/9:1 stock compression/Thermoquad = 10.9 @ 119 when no one
at NHRA is watching.

'73 Roadrunner with the factory weird suspension/Strange Frame K Member/J
Torsion bars that weighs a ton. It will be at all West Coast NHRA National races if anyone would like a tour of it and the tricks. Most of them are not Cheap!
No Fiberglass Bumpers = I would get thrown out forever.
I did put glass bumpers front and back on My Turbo Buick to get it light enough
to set a National Record for ONE race and then took them off before we got caught!
There is a lot of weight that can be remove and concealed in bumper area on the Newer cars without it being obvious. Even the earlier cars have very heavy brackets that can be redone with a nice weight saving. Cheap Hint: If there are two bumper brackets on both sides on your cars - Lose the heavier one and put the other on a diet or fab a light one. If you do not bump into stuff a lot!.
30 years ago I would go out the the Garage after the Kids went to bed and put
the car on Jack Stands and Not go to Sleep until I remove 2 Lbs. every night!
My 71 Demon with a full cage/working windows/Full cage and extra 60 lbs of
frame support/torque boxes/Connectors and extra crossmembers in just over 2700Lb. Wet
Another Hint: Assorted Grinders /Scrapers and a Hobby Torch and a LOT
of Elbow Grease!

Check it out : Google John Irving Drag Racer
and Mopar Garage Last week for my boys Demon

 

[fullmetaljacket]

3100 Lbs with dana 60 and 400 with "stock" cast iron intake manifold.
Stock Cam/9:1 stock compression/Thermoquad = 10.9 @ 119 when no one
at NHRA is watching.

'73 Roadrunner with the factory weird suspension/Strange Frame K Member/J
Torsion bars that weighs a ton. It will be at all West Coast NHRA National races if anyone would like a tour of it and the tricks. Most of them are not Cheap!
No Fiberglass Bumpers = I would get thrown out forever.
I did put glass bumpers front and back on My Turbo Buick to get it light enough
to set a National Record for ONE race and then took them off before we got caught!
There is a lot of weight that can be remove and concealed in bumper area on the Newer cars without it being obvious. Even the earlier cars have very heavy brackets that can be redone with a nice weight saving. Cheap Hint: If there are two bumper brackets on both sides on your cars - Lose the heavier one and put the other on a diet or fab a light one. If you do not bump into stuff a lot!.
30 years ago I would go out the the Garage after the Kids went to bed and put
the car on Jack Stands and Not go to Sleep until I remove 2 Lbs. every night!
My 71 Demon with a full cage/working windows/Full cage and extra 60 lbs of
frame support/torque boxes/Connectors and extra crossmembers in just over 2700Lb. Wet
Another Hint: Assorted Grinders /Scrapers and a Hobby Torch and a LOT
of Elbow Grease!

Check it out : Google John Irving Drag Racer
and Mopar Garage Last week for my boys Demon

Love it. Not all of us here go to sleep early or sleep at all. Is this the John with the Lime Twist all steel GTX?

 

[rmchrgr]

Even the earlier cars have very heavy brackets that can be redone with a nice weight saving.

Indeed.

I did not make these front bumper brackets myself but they are on my Duster. The guy that made them is a fabricator by trade out in Michigan. He has an 8 second, small block turbo '72 Duster called Fool's Gold. He made two sets and I was lucky enough to get the extra ones.

Frankly I don't remember exactly what the weight difference was over the stock ones but it was significant. The other benefit of these is that they're on the front of the car. And speaking of lightweight fasteners, I'm sure fmj would know better than me but perhaps there are aluminum bumper bolts out there somewhere that could be polished up to look like chrome.

In any event, the same ideas would apply to any B body. If there was a concern about them standing out you could just paint them up and to make them look like the originals.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

Indeed.

I did not make these front bumper brackets myself but they are on my Duster. The guy that made them is a fabricator by trade out in Michigan. He has an 8 second, small block turbo '72 Duster called Fool's Gold. He made two sets and I was lucky enough to get the extra ones.

Frankly I don't remember exactly what the weight difference was over the stock ones but it was significant. The other benefit of these is that they're on the front of the car. And speaking of lightweight fasteners, I'm sure fmj would know better than me but perhaps there are aluminum bumper bolts out there somewhere that could be polished up to look like chrome.

In any event, the same ideas would apply to any B body. If there was a concern about them standing out you could just paint them up and to make them look like the originals.
View attachment 1224829

SPILLAGE ON AISLE #7
For the record, back in 2003 or so, I created an exact replica pair of bumper brackets for a friend of mine that runs a fast real street Duster and they were significantly lighter than the originals. Even survived a 45% hit when he hit the wall one day. Agreed that the weight up front must get its eviction papers sooner than later if rapid acceleration is the objective.
There are a variety of carriage bolt sizes out on the market in aluminum that could be sanded, rubbed and polished to look exactly like chrome. Though a stock bumper itself is obviously heavier than an aluminum or fiberglass version, these carriage bolts seem to be somewhat strong and capable of carrying sheer weight if it is not too heavy. But then again, why would anyone change only the carriage bolts and not the heavy elephant in the room?
Again, not to seem like showboating, those carriage bolts held my stock bumper on for years until I retired them when a new lightweight bumper was on the horizon. Keep in mind that some stock bumpers from car to car/ makes and models are different in weight. My '65 bumper in bone stock trim was relatively light at approximately 22 LBS. Where as my friends '64 Dodge bumper with all its curves and compound bends was a porky 33-36 LBS more or less. My current lightweight (steel) bumper comes in at a feathery 8 LBS, so those carriage bolts would not be even acknowledging its presence.
I wouldn't put it past the Boyz over at the F.A.S.T and PURE STOCK racing camps who have been doing this trick on their cars for years. Wish some or one of them would come on here to submit some spillage on the details.

 

[Badvert65]

FMJ
What's the story on the light weight, steel bumper @ 8 pounds?

 

[GTX JOHN]

There are a million different tricks and strategies to save
weight. Many are common sense. However, the folks that
race these cars are limited on what they can tell you and not get
in trouble in Tech.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

FMJ
What's the story on the light weight, steel bumper @ 8 pounds?

Thin gauge 341 stainless steel center section break formed over metal shop table edge with the original bumpers end caps tig welded on the ends. This since those compound curves that shape the caps were hard to form on hardened stainless steel and I didn't necessarily have all the right tools handy or any access to an English wheel at the time.
I then cut and shaped the running light openings to mimic the originals, but I was never happy with them, because for some odd reason, I couldn't get the openings rolled or flared in like I wanted and they looked too fake and fiberglassy to me, so I settled for sharp looking edges that I did with a Dremel. After all was grounded down and very thinly spot puttied and finished, it was painted aluminum color using a spray bomb funny enough.
This image below is from way back in 2002 or so at the Brooklyn Navy Yard. Note the front bumper already long been installed using aluminum carriage bolts. Also here is the aluminum hood itself in the midst of having its first outer skin perimeter shavings and fittings done before a visit to an English wheel and power hammer at a nearby metal shop. That was a crazy project all on its own.
Talk about history, this here is a stones throw away from the dry-dock where both the USS Arizona and USS Missouri were constructed. Both the start and end caps of WW11. Almost 60 years later, a lightweight was being constructed in its shadows.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

There are a million different tricks and strategies to save
weight. Many are common sense. However, the folks that
race these cars are limited on what they can tell you and not get
in trouble in Tech.

In some circles the sensitive info wasn't unloaded to protect the $$ pot at the finish line. LOL. Good old bygone grudge nights.
But I totally get what GTX here is saying.

 

[GTX JOHN]

I understand = I worked my way thru College by Street Racing
5 nights week in different area of So Cal.
I was Vice President of Los Angeles Street Racers

 

[fullmetaljacket]

I understand = I worked my way thru College by Street Racing
5 nights week in different area of So Cal.
I was Vice President of Los Angeles Street Racers

Not to turn away from the subject at hand, but Willie personally told me a few stories and especially the one concerning his trip to New York. What a race that would have been indeed. From one Grudger to another. Nice to meet you Sir.