New 440 problem - help please!

[miller]

Right. So it's clear, that pre-load, is made from the push rod length, so once the valve train is (slowly) bolted into place, push rods force the lifter cups down, off the retaining rings. Makes positive contact for the push rod end, to lifter cup...no gap.
Hydraulic lifters always compress some, usually against the internal spring. You never want the lifter cups, to be able to contact the retaining ring...otherwise, they wouldn't stay together very long.

 

[FogHead]

Well... I've discovered a collapsed lifter. Probably due to insufficient preload. Ugh. When I pull the intake, I'll carefully inspect the cam surfaces to see where that stands. I have a brand new set of hughes lifters sitting in a box, so I'll drop those in providing the cam isn't toasted.

 

[miller]

Two things I've always done, with hydraulic tappets, for what it's worth.

Dropped them into a container of oil, and used a dowel rod, to 'pump' the cup a few times. Simply to get a little oil inside, so it's not dry.
Bolting down the rockers/shafts...slowly...evenly...to allow the tappets to bleed out, while the tension is put on them.

Of course, you'll have to break-in the cam, again. Good luck on it!

 

[moparedtn]

Two things I've always done, with hydraulic tappets, for what it's worth.

Dropped them into a container of oil, and used a dowel rod, to 'pump' the cup a few times. Simply to get a little oil inside, so it's not dry.
Bolting down the rockers/shafts...slowly...evenly...to allow the tappets to bleed out, while the tension is put on them.

Of course, you'll have to break-in the cam, again. Good luck on it!

Agreed. USE MORE ASSEMBLY LUBE when you're replacing the lifters!

Yes, the average .040 measurement is truly how far depressed you want the cups in the lifters to be pushed in off their retaining clips once everything is installed.
That's what the pushrod measuring tool is for - it's a pushrod that is capable of being adjusted and locked down to a variety of lengths so that you find how long a pushrod you need to get that pre-load.
Adjust it until you get that pre-load (measuring with a feeler gauge between the retaining clip and the cup on the lifter), then measure how long the adjusted pushrod is. That's the length pushrod you need.

 

[moparedtn]

Right. So it's clear, that pre-load, is made from the push rod length, so once the valve train is (slowly) bolted into place, push rods force the lifter cups down, off the retaining rings. Makes positive contact for the push rod end, to lifter cup...no gap.
Hydraulic lifters always compress some, usually against the internal spring. You never want the lifter cups, to be able to contact the retaining ring...otherwise, they wouldn't stay together very long.

You and I are in complete agreement on this.
Out of curiosity, why the "Disagree" on my earlier post?

 

[miller]

No, stock type lifters do not bleed down.

That quote. Unless your meaning stock solids. All hydraulic lifters are designed to bleed down. That's where the hydraulics come into play...
No big deal.

 

[FogHead]

Don't need to be a weather man to know which way the wind is blowing with these 3 pics. And this isn't the lifter that collapsed either. All other cam lobes look pretty good - but not this one nor the lifter from it. ****. Not really thinking bad enough to rebuild fully though... I hope. The cam metal isn't flaking off - that's just some lint from a rag I stuck in there.

 

[moparedtn]

That quote. Unless your meaning stock solids. All hydraulic lifters are designed to bleed down. That's where the hydraulics come into play...
No big deal.

Ah. I guess I should have elaborated there. They don't "go totally flat" when you shut down is what I meant. Otherwise, we'd all hear a mariachi band every time we started the car cold, eh?

 

[Ski 61701]

Do yourself a favor and take your new lifters apart. I have found more gunk in new lifters as of late, mainly comp products. Just to rule out machining debris inside of the lifters. You can't trust anyone's product anymore. Also check the face / edge of the lifters for nicks. There again I've had them with nicks and gouges in them. Usually dress it up with jeweler file. After I'm done with this, then I wd40 the sides and see how the slide in their respective bores. They need to rotate. If you mark them just by turning motor over you'll see them rotate. If not move them around to a different bore. Another thing to look at is casting flash on sides of lobes, some lobes are close enough that if cam walks just a tad you'll have 2 lobes hit same lifter. It's happened to me on more than 1 occasion, and its good I caught it during mock up.
Good lube on face of lifter and oil on the sides once you've confirmed everything is moving properly

 

[FogHead]

Do yourself a favor and take your new lifters apart. I have found more gunk in new lifters as of late, mainly comp products. Just to rule out machining debris inside of the lifters. You can't trust anyone's product anymore. Also check the face / edge of the lifters for nicks. There again I've had them with nicks and gouges in them. Usually dress it up with jeweler file. After I'm done with this, then I wd40 the sides and see how the slide in their respective bores. They need to rotate. If you mark them just by turning motor over you'll see them rotate. If not move them around to a different bore. Another thing to look at is casting flash on sides of lobes, some lobes are close enough that if cam walks just a tad you'll have 2 lobes hit same lifter. It's happened to me on more than 1 occasion, and its good I caught it during mock up.
Good lube on face of lifter and oil on the sides once you've confirmed everything is moving properly

Good advice. I'm hearing it. I've done about 20 or so cam replacements and at least as many engine rebuilds (many, many more motorcycle motors) and I've never had the problems that this one has given me. Granted, it's been at least 10 or so years since I did a car engine, and this is the first 440 I've ever done, so I'm willing to admit mistakes just due to unfamiliar stuff.

That being said, this cam stuff and zddp garbage is really killing me. I've never had this happen before, and I've got all of 40 years messing with this stuff.

Are these cams all made from recycled metal? Has the oil all become that bad? I'm really not into another comp cam at the moment here... How about I list what's been done/going to be done with the car, and you folks turn me on to a cam?

 

[Ski 61701]

Like others have mentioned about measuring the preload of the lifters is important. Especially since we are monkeying with 40 plus yr old blocks etc and who knows whats been done to them machine shop wise. Its one of those Chrysler things that a lot of us are used to, not your run of the mill sbc.
Yes oil is uber critical nowadays. Ive had good luck with valvoline vr1 10w30 oil. But as I mentioned lifters need to rotate a full 360 in their bores, if not you are going to have probs down the road. Another thing to look into if you replace the cam in your motor is to have cam intrided, just to ensure longevity, especially if you have high spring pressures.
If you haven't already look at Hughes engines website, there are some good tips / explainations on motors. Plus you have all of us here, plenty of smart people here

 

[miller]

Like others have mentioned about measuring the preload of the lifters is important.

Yup, Ski 61701 is right on the mark.
Something not mentioned, but should be checked, is the tappet bore size. Just to be sure it's still in standard limits. If not, need to go over-size tappets.
Not going to recommend any cam outfit, not these days. So far I'm good with my Crower cam, and the hydraulic tappets they supply. We'll see!
Oil is a hot topic! VR-1 is mine...but a straight weight. It's what I broke my cam in with, along with some ZDDPlus, that was recommended.

Sorry to hear about the cam. It's all about set-up, even if the cam is good stock. Sure didn't help, with that one lousy tappet. That's why I check movement on all mine. All it takes is one.

 

[FogHead]

Yeah... everything was working too as it went back together... dammit. But whatever - I've learned what to be pissed about and what to accept over the years as just a bit of unfortunate luck. Moving on, I'll have it apart - again - later today, and will likely go with the nitriding of a (sigh) comp cam. Besides, I think I need something a little meaner as the converter is capable of much better (PIA with 2200 stall) and gearing will be 3.55.

Funny thing here - what aggravates me the most is I still have the callous/scar on my palm from using my garbage valve spring compressor. Getting a correct one of those asap!!

Would that lifter bore burnishing ball/tool that Hughes sells be a good call now?

 

[Ski 61701]

Not sure on the tool, I've never used one before. Last several motors I've done, I had lifter bores sleeved and I lightly ran a brake hone to dress them up.
If you can, wiggle your existing lifters in their bores at 3 points in travel, bottom, midway, and top. See how much slop you have. Not many people have inside mics that go that small. I'd also mic your lifters to see their od is.
If you google nitriding, I think there is a place out in the Carolinas that nitrides cams, so that way you are not stuck with comp cams.
Some guys can get away with slapping things together and it runs fine
Me personally, I have the luck of the Polish on my side, so I have to really check things out, if I don't it comes back to haunt me

 

[miller]

Would that lifter bore burnishing ball/tool that Hughes sells be a good call now?

Personally, wouldn't think so. As long as the lifter bores are in reasonable shape, and considering the oiling port area as part of it, I've always cleaned them with a fine grade Scotchbrite, and done.
Yeah, just a wiggle test will get you by, after measuring a few, for comparison. Only reason I mentioned it is, these old blocks, not knowing what has been done to it. Call it a need to know thing. Lifters need a clean bore to move, and rotate in, but not too much slop, since they work off of oil feed.

I've had a few, where someone tried to 'fix' it, wound up screwing it up.

 

[FogHead]

Not sure on the tool, I've never used one before. Last several motors I've done, I had lifter bores sleeved and I lightly ran a brake hone to dress them up.
If you can, wiggle your existing lifters in their bores at 3 points in travel, bottom, midway, and top. See how much slop you have. Not many people have inside mics that go that small. I'd also mic your lifters to see their od is.
If you google nitriding, I think there is a place out in the Carolinas that nitrides cams, so that way you are not stuck with comp cams.
Some guys can get away with slapping things together and it runs fine
Me personally, I have the luck of the Polish on my side, so I have to really check things out, if I don't it comes back to haunt me

Yeah... same goes for me! Polish misfortune catches up with me from time to time as well... for the important stuff/big real life stuff though, I come through pretty much unscathed. Thankfully, that's where my good fortune does pull through.

 

[FogHead]

I've had a few, where someone tried to 'fix' it, wound up screwing it up.

Good point! Damn good point... I'll judiciously clean and inspect. I was laughing to myself while looking at the cam and noting that the backside of the lobes really have no wear on them at all. Good grief I got lucky there... You hear that Ski???? Positive luck!!!

 

[miller]

The cam lobes are ground, so there's a slight angle to them. Forces the tappets to rotate, for even wear.
How about those rockers you mentioned? Stock stamped rockers? They can/have run fine, even with a lift of .500". I'll take a good 'used' set, over the 'new and improved' (via china), any day of the week!

 

[FogHead]

The cam lobes are ground, so there's a slight angle to them. Forces the tappets to rotate, for even wear.
How about those rockers you mentioned? Stock stamped rockers? They can/have run fine, even with a lift of .500". I'll take a good 'used' set, over the 'new and improved' (via china), any day of the week!

Rockers are factory stamped steel... and with the springs I'm running, they should be fine. If anything, I'll just keep an eye on the bay for a used set of vintage iron ones to come through at a reasonable price. At the moment, I'm thinking the Hughes SEH2428BL-11 will be the next cam.

 

[niteshift70]

Inspect the spaces between each lobe. Sometimes there will be a small high spot in the raw cast space between the lobes that is not noticed during the machining process that catches the edge of the lifter that can temporarily stop or reverse lifter rotation or even damage the lifter face.