No flashers or blinkers, hazards work fine

[levicah]

I have a 1974 Plymouth Satellite, and I recently had to change one of the tail lights and one of the back up lights. The sockets were a little rusty, but I cleaned them out and replaced the bulbs (from water damage). After I replaced them, everything worked fine, until the next day, I noticed the blinkers and flashers were not working, no "tick tick" sound either (the back up lights stopped working as well, not sure if that is coincidental). I investigated the problem, and the hazard lights make the flashers and blinkers work fine, so I replaced the relay for the flashers, but no luck. I checked and cleaned the grounds on the tail lights, everything appeared well... The brake lights work too, but not when the hazards are on. I'm just stuck trying to figure out why the turn signal doesn't work! I would assume the problem is related to me replacing the tail lights/back up lights, but I don't know for sure.

Thanks,
Micah

 

[oldbee]

Re-check all the grounds first. Could also be a bad t/s switch that just happened to take a crap at the same time. Check all the fuses.

 

[levicah]

Re-check all the grounds first. Could also be a bad t/s switch that just happened to take a crap at the same time. Check all the fuses.

What does it mean when my break lights dont work while my hazard lights are flashing? Is this a clue?

 

[Nacho-RT74]

Brake lights are desactivated when hazzards are on by default since 1970.

Will come back later to post more.

 

[Nacho-RT74]

ok, lets continue.

Ground on tail lights are common between back up and red lights, so if hazzards works, back up should too.

Turning lights. Let's say still there is a problem on rears, but fronts still should work. Same about hazzards

It won't be a tick tick sound on flashers if there is no load on them. The load is what makes the flasher to blink making heat on bimetallic inside. The only way to get load is the turning switch is feeding the bulbs.

turning switch is a matrix what matches some of inputs with some of the outputs,3 inputs with 4 outputs depending on the function selected

inputs on plug down the column:
White: comes from brake lights. On rest position, they are linked to dark green and brown wires ( tail lights ).
Red: comes from turning flasher. It links to tan and brown when setting to one side, and with light green and dark green to the other side. When selectin one of the side, the other side remains linked with white wire for brakes.
Pink: comes from hazzard flasher. It links to all 4 outputs mentioned ( Tan, Brown, and both greens ) previouslly and cuts with the rest when hazzards are selected.

oututs are one each corner as you can say per my previous statement. Light colors are front ( and cluster pilot lights ) and dark colors are rears, browns one side greens the other side.

so... check the column plug is correctly connected, not loosen and wires are healthy. Once It happened to me I was allways loosing brakes and it was the white wire looking good outside but wire internally broken.

if that seems to be fine, assuming input wires are getting the voltage ( white just pressing brakes, red constant while key in ACC or RUN, and pink constant ), it could be a damaged turning switch

 

[levicah]

ok, lets continue.

Ground on tail lights are common between back up and red lights, so if hazzards works, back up should too.

Turning lights. Let's say still there is a problem on rears, but fronts still should work. Same about hazzards

It won't be a tick tick sound on flashers if there is no load on them. The load is what makes the flasher to blink making heat on bimetallic inside. The only way to get load is the turning switch is feeding the bulbs.

turning switch is a matrix what matches some of inputs with some of the outputs,3 inputs with 4 outputs depending on the function selected

inputs on plug down the column:
White: comes from brake lights. On rest position, they are linked to dark green and brown wires ( tail lights ).
Red: comes from turning flasher. It links to tan and brown when setting to one side, and with light green and dark green to the other side. When selectin one of the side, the other side remains linked with white wire for brakes.
Pink: comes from hazzard flasher. It links to all 4 outputs mentioned ( Tan, Brown, and both greens ) previouslly and cuts with the rest when hazzards are selected.

oututs are one each corner as you can say per my previous statement. Light colors are front ( and cluster pilot lights ) and dark colors are rears, browns one side greens the other side.

so... check the column plug is correctly connected, not loosen and wires are healthy. Once It happened to me I was allways loosing brakes and it was the white wire looking good outside but wire internally broken.

if that seems to be fine, assuming input wires are getting the voltage ( white just pressing brakes, red constant while key in ACC or RUN, and pink constant ), it could be a damaged turning switch

Thanks for the in depth response, and just to clarify, if all the lights work (except for back up lights), flashers and blinkers work when the hazards are on, is it to safe to say that the grounds are ok? Or is the fact that the back up lights dont work a sign that there is a bad ground affecting the entire blinker relay?

 

[Nacho-RT74]

Blinker relay/flasher has nothing to do with grounds since just drives positive. A ground failure could make a dimming issue somewhere else but flasher has nothing to do.

Backup lights... is a violet wire on trunk harness. You can check there if you are getting voltage. On kick panel ( underdash harness ) this wire becomes on white traced black. Have you checked the NSS down the car ( tranny plug ) ? does it starts normally in P or N ?

but once again, if rest of lights are working, you don't have a ground issue enough to not light up backup lights. Unless being the SOCKETS by themself but too much casuallity both fail at the same time.

I can't recall right now if 73/74 tail light housings are pot metal or plastic ? If plastic, they share same ground wire with rest of taillights and sidemarkers, attached to a trunk reinforcement with a bolt. If pot metal, each socket its directly grounded by chassis.

flashers and blinkers could work when hazzards because the turning switch is selecting one or the other side, cutting the power to the rest. There is a weird feedback throught the matrix selector inside when that happens that I can't analize at this moment.

 

[levicah]

Blinker relay/flasher has nothing to do with grounds since just drives positive. A ground failure could make a dimming issue somewhere else but flasher has nothing to do.

Backup lights... is a violet wire on trunk harness. You can check there if you are getting voltage. On kick panel ( underdash harness ) this wire becomes on white traced black. Have you checked the NSS down the car ( tranny plug ) ? does it starts normally in P or N ?

but once again, if rest of lights are working, you don't have a ground issue enough to not light up backup lights. Unless being the SOCKETS by themself but too much casuallity both fail at the same time.

I can't recall right now if 73/74 tail light housings are pot metal or plastic ? If plastic, they share same ground wire with rest of taillights and sidemarkers, attached to a trunk reinforcement with a bolt. If pot metal, each socket its directly grounded by chassis.

flashers and blinkers could work when hazzards because the turning switch is selecting one or the other side, cutting the power to the rest. There is a weird feedback throught the matrix selector inside when that happens that I can't analize at this moment.

Ok, first, thanks for the time and replies!...the dirty question is this: if I cant get any voltage at the flasher with the turn signal switch being on to left or right or at rest, is the next stop the signal switch in the column? All my fuses have 12v at both posts. How can I rule out the column switch? shouldnt it be directing voltage to the flasher?

 

[Nacho-RT74]

so... check the column plug is correctly connected, not loosen and wires are healthy. Once It happened to me I was allways loosing brakes and it was the white wire looking good outside but wire internally broken.

if that seems to be fine, assuming input wires are getting the voltage ( white just pressing brakes, red constant while key in ACC or RUN, and pink constant ), it could be a damaged turning switch

here is the answer... if Red with key in ACC or RUN, Pink constant from batt, and white when pressing brake pedals are getting 12 volts, flashers, brakes pedal switch and related wires are good. Only moment flashers could be bad on this test and still getting 12 volts is if points inside flashers are stuck for some reason what would make the lights won't blink but will be steady on.

after that, the turning switch could be the culprit.

parking tail lights function and backup has nothing to do with this ( just in case )

you can make also a continuity test of tuning switch:
1.unplug the switch down the column.
2. with one of the testers lead on white wire ( tester on continuity ), must get continuity with dark green and brown. That's brakes
3.with one of the tester leads on RED... it doesn't have continuity with ANY other UNTILL you set one side or the other side. With one side must get continuity with tan and brown. to the other side, with Light green and Dark Green. For a while you test one or the other side, the white wire must keep continuity with the darker opposite side ( this is the brakes function while turning side at the same time just to the non selected side )
4. Pink wire must get continuity with all 4 outputs when turning on hazzard switch, and must cut white wire continuity.

this will translate on a good working conditions turning switch.

despite black wire, since is horns

 

[levicah]

here is the answer... if Red with key in ACC or RUN, Pink constant from batt, and white when pressing brake pedals are getting 12 volts, flashers, brakes pedal switch and related wires are good. Only moment flashers could be bad on this test and still getting 12 volts is if points inside flashers are stuck for some reason what would make the lights won't blink but will be steady on.

after that, the turning switch could be the culprit.

parking tail lights function and backup has nothing to do with this ( just in case )

you can make also a continuity test of tuning switch:
1.unplug the switch down the column.
2. with one of the testers lead on white wire ( tester on continuity ), must get continuity with dark green and brown. That's brakes
3.with one of the tester leads on RED... it doesn't have continuity with ANY other UNTILL you set one side or the other side. With one side must get continuity with tan and brown. to the other side, with Light green and Dark Green. For a while you test one or the other side, the white wire must keep continuity with the darker opposite side ( this is the brakes function while turning side at the same time just to the non selected side )
4. Pink wire must get continuity with all 4 outputs when turning on hazzard switch, and must cut white wire continuity.

this will translate on a good working conditions turning switch.

despite black wire, since is horns

Ok. I might not be doing something right. I am testing the posts against each other on the column side plug only. right? (checking for current or continuity looping back down from the t/s switch in the column)? I did not get continuity on any of the combo's...even the hazards didnt get continuity...and I know they work. same with brake lights. So what am I doing wrong?

 

[Nacho-RT74]

checking for current on dash side of harness ( male end )... checking for continuity on column side of harness ( females )

lest see... did you turn on the hazzard knob to check pink againts the greens and browns ? if hazzards work power it should get continuity

 

[levicah]

checking for current on dash side of harness ( male end )... checking for continuity on column side of harness ( females )

lest see... did you turn on the hazzard knob to check pink againts the greens and browns ? if hazzards work power it should get continuity

thanks for the patience! So are you saying red lead goes in red column side female and the other lead is checking the male plugs on the dash side plug? all set for continuity on my meter?

 

[Nacho-RT74]

no, continuity check is with both tester leads on females: one on PINk, the other one with tan, brown, light and dark greens. Hazzard Knob activated....

Same with turning function: one lead on RED, the other one on tan and brown with turning in one position, then with greens with turnings in the ither position.

White with dark green and brown with turning and hazzards off.

checking voltage is on male ends... Pink against chassis is constant, red against chassis just with key in Run or Acc. White againts chassis giving brakes.

 

[levicah]

no, continuity check is with both tester leads on females: one on PINk, the other one with tan, brown, light and dark greens. Hazzard Knob activated....

Same with turning function: one lead on RED, the other one on tan and brown with turning in one position, then with greens with turnings in the ither position.

White with dark green and brown with turning and hazzards off.

checking voltage is on male ends... Pink against chassis is constant, red against chassis just with key in Run or Acc. White againts chassis giving brakes.

When you say "tan and brown" I only have 2 test leads, one is in the red socket...am I testing the tan wire and then testing the brown wire? or do I need a jumper between tan and brown to test them together? sorry...I'm feeling pretty dense about now.

 

[Nacho-RT74]

One then the other.
Tan is front
Brown is rear
Both to one side ( can't recall if left or right )

Same about greens
Light green is front
Dark green is rear
Once again to one side! The other one whichever it is, lef or right

Lighter colors are fronts

Darker colors are rears

Brownish wires are one side

Greenish wires are the other side

 

[levicah]

to save frustration, key is off. test lead is plugged into the female (column side) red. I got no continuity with any of the other sockets on the same plug...regardless of t/s switch position.

 

[Nacho-RT74]

Red gets power in Run or acc
Pink is constant no mater where the key is

Both assuming flashers, wires and fuses are good

White gets power pressing brakes, no matter where the key is.

( male end )

 

[Nacho-RT74]

to save frustration, key is off. test lead is plugged into the female (column side) red. I got no continuity with any of the other sockets on the same plug...regardless of t/s switch position.

Ok if red wire does not have continuity with ANY of the 4 corners wires at female end on ANY turning switch position, is pointing out turning switch is bad.

 

[Nacho-RT74]

you can also jump out male ends to check for power up to bulbs confirming wiring is good up to bulb ends ( including bulbs )

 

[levicah]

Red gets power in Run or acc
Pink is constant no mater where the key is

Both assuming flashers, wires and fuses are good

White gets power pressing brakes, no matter where the key is.

So, I thought "continuity" is testing for a complete circuit but with no power involved. I havnt been testing for voltage...assuming there is none when I pulled the connector apart and the key is off...I also get no voltage at the flasher terminals with everything plugged in, so my flasher is not getting power in any position at any time, except for a back fed 4 volts on the ground side. Should I just give up and replace the t/s switch?