Project Alternator/Electric Fan: still have questions (I have read all the archives)

[john.thompson068]

The car is a 66 Satellite with a 440. First let me state that anytime I create new wires I always crimp, solder, wrap with electrical tape, and finish with heat shrink. I have already bypassed the ampmeter by connecting the two wires together. I upgraded the charging wire to an 8 guage wire. This wire runs to a terminal block on the firewall. From here the 8 guage wire goes under the dash were I connected it to the big power up wire. I also run the same 8 guage wire into the trunk to charge the battery. I did all this when I installed Mad Electrical's battery relocation kit so it has all of the fuseable links in all the right places. I have a volt guage, and the car has been upgraded to electronic ignition and has an electronic voltage regulator.

I currently use the stock style alternator. It may either be a 50A or a 60A depending on which one I picked up, however many years ago. Is there a way I can test this to find out how many amps my alternator has? There is no visible part numbers.

Here are my four possible 3 wire alternator options for an upgrade.

Option 1.

Keep all the silly comments BTW. I really want to run a 12SI alternator. It has 90A, can be purchased at any parts store for 150$, and I can install it with a M.A.D. ALT-1 kit for $28 which will make wiring it simple. The problem is, how do I get brackets to hook this up to a 440?

Option 2.

Install a Powermaster 80A (PWM17519). The advantage here is it will fit my existing bracket. The only disadvantage is the alternator must be special ordered and costs $200. Then again, alternators last a long time even on a car that is driven everyday, so chances are, whatever alternator I buy for my cruiser will last a lifetime.

Option 3.

Install a Mancini Denso alternator kit with brackets. One kit has a 60A alternator for $210. I don't think this is considered an upgrade from what I have now. The other kit is a 120A alternator kit and runs $220. The nice thing about these kits is that at least they come with brackets. Again, these alternators must be special ordered, but are around 150$, and again, how likely is it to ever need to be replaced?

Option 4.

Something like a 1988 Fifth Avenue 90A, but how am I supposed to bolt that thing up?



I plan on having a stereo with two 600 watt amps, power windows, air conditioning, two powerful fans on the radiator, and one smaller fan on a trans cooler in the near future. I may need an electric fuel pump 10 years from now.


Currently, I am looking at a small pusher fan for one side of my radiator. This leaves me with a few unanswered questions.

Question 1

I was really excited about this small electric 11.75" pusher fan with 2210 cfm, but it draws 23.4 amps, which does not seem worth it. A better idea would be a 10" fan with 1150 cfm and a 7 amp draw for the front. On the other side of the radiator I could always upgrade from the mechanical fan to a 16" fan with 3600 cfm and only a 10 amp draw. Both of these fans would provide almost 4800 cfm of cooling and only draw 17 amps, which is a lot less than that one crazy 11.75" fan alone. Supposing I did this, and I have the aforementioned stereo system, air conditioning, power windows, and one day a fuel pump, how many Amps of an alternator should I upgrade too?

Question 2

We will have to assume that I have the 50A alternator. I currently have no stereo, or any power robbing accessories at all. What is the most amps I could afford to give to an electric fan?

 

[Revhendo]

Personally, I would look into the Delco CS130 or CS144 alternators. They are currently some of the best units out there. They are plentiful and not hugely expensive. The bonus being the higher amperage and more efficient regulators. They are far superior at an idle also.

Stay far away from one wire alternators. The internal regulation on these units is a failure waiting to happen.

The pusher fan is a good idea for an assist at low speeds. Just be sure the rest of the cooling system is up to par and that the extra fan is only for extreme conditions and not a regular part of your cooling systems operation. Also be careful when running an electric fan on both sides of the radiator. You can actually create a dead airflow space in the center of your radiator core that will cause you way more headaches than you can ever imagine. (Trust me, I know this one well).

 

[Sweet5ltr]

Personally, I would look into the Delco CS130 or CS144 alternators. They are currently some of the best units out there. They are plentiful and not hugely expensive. The bonus being the higher amperage and more efficient regulators. They are far superior at an idle also.

Agree. If you look at some of the large alternators that produce impressive peak amperage, they may produce low amperage at idle. You must look at this prior to deciding on what alternator to purchase. Large stereos and heavy electronics are going to require a very high amount of amperage at idle that needs to be freely available.

Stay far away from one wire alternators. The internal regulation on these units is a failure waiting to happen.

Also agree, in some cases failure does occur; but this could be concluded with about any aftermarket or factory replacement part.

The pusher fan is a good idea for an assist at low speeds. Just be sure the rest of the cooling system is up to par and that the extra fan is only for extreme conditions and not a regular part of your cooling systems operation. Also be careful when running an electric fan on both sides of the radiator. You can actually create a dead airflow space in the center of your radiator core that will cause you way more headaches than you can ever imagine. (Trust me, I know this one well).

I run my pusher fan at all times, but it isn't necessary to do so. It's just convenient to not watch the temperature gauge at all times awaiting the time to flip the switch or to worry about an temperature switch being inoperable and your engine overheating if you're not careful. The mechanical fan was not designed to solely keep a 550-600HP Big Block cool at 850-1400RPM (idle). My take is to not believe all the hype, and stick with a Mechanical Puller for reliability and an Electric fan for additional cooling (the way most HD vehicles are designed). Lets face it, we are making more power than ANYTHING on the street and are acting like we can cool it just like everything on the street. You can run a $1,000 Be Cool Radiator that won't help you an ounce when you are idling in 100* Florida traffic and you can't pull the air it needs through it. You need the advantages of an electric fan, but the durability of a mechanical unit as well. I have seen FAR too many cases where the electric fan has left someone stranded when they completely switched over to it; for a savings of a few HP. That is why I vote, Electric Pusher/Mechanical Puller setup

..

 

[john.thompson068]

Personally, I would look into the Delco CS130 or CS144 alternators. They are currently some of the best units out there. They are plentiful and not hugely expensive. The bonus being the higher amperage and more efficient regulators. They are far superior at an idle also.

Stay far away from one wire alternators. The internal regulation on these units is a failure waiting to happen.

The pusher fan is a good idea for an assist at low speeds. Just be sure the rest of the cooling system is up to par and that the extra fan is only for extreme conditions and not a regular part of your cooling systems operation. Also be careful when running an electric fan on both sides of the radiator. You can actually create a dead airflow space in the center of your radiator core that will cause you way more headaches than you can ever imagine. (Trust me, I know this one well).

The existing cooling system is a 24x 18 4 core aluminum radiator and is the biggest one I have room for. It has a fan shroud and an 18" MP viscous fan. For whatever reason, it runs too hot in traffic and idling. So I will start off with a small pusher fan. Later I can ditch the mechanical fan and go with an electric fan to pull. I have heard about fans being able to cancel each other out, so I will try and make sure that doesn't become an issue.

I read all about the problems of the one wire alternator.

The Delco sounds like a good alternator, but where do I get brackets to hook that one up to a 440?

 

[john.thompson068]

..

I thought about what you were saying about switching over to only electric fans. What happens if one went out? Guess you would be looking for the road that has the least traffic. But really, does not every new car today have an electric fan? My 05 Monte Carlo has them, and a 105A alternator, and I have not had any problems at all and it is at 75,000 miles. I feel you though on the advantage of having a mechanical fan and a pusher as a supplement. If I was really really planning on going that route, though, it would be all the more reason to install that super powerful 2210 cfm 11.75" fan with 23.4 amp draw.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

I thought about what you were saying about switching over to only electric fans. What happens if one went out? Guess you would be looking for the road that has the least traffic. But really, does not every new car today have an electric fan? My 05 Monte Carlo has them, and a 105A alternator, and I have not had any problems at all and it is at 75,000 miles. I feel you though on the advantage of having a mechanical fan and a pusher as a supplement. If I was really really planning on going that route, though, it would be all the more reason to install that super powerful 2210 cfm 11.75" fan with 23.4 amp draw.

I agree! I didn't add this in my post, but the local pull-a-parts are great sources for factory electric fan setups. The only issue that I have personally came up with when I wanted to switch over, was that many are too thick to install as a puller. Check your clearances between the water pump pulley, and the radiator and try and find a dual or single electric fan setup that works for your application. OEM Electric fans with shrouds, are the only fans I would use if I was to ditch the mechanical fan. A clutch fan does not use much power, and I don't see why anyone would get rid of it to be honest. My Corvette Z06 has electric fans, but it also is all aluminum and is built to run at higher temperatures. The issue with many vehicles switching to electric fans is, they use horizontally mounted engines or they just do not have the underhood clearance. The clutch fan setup actually pulls very high CFM in relation to a electric fan. The reason you are not keeping cool, is that you are running a 550HP Mopar and believing it should stay cool like your 200HP Chevy ;) More HP, More Heat...

I just believe reliability is far more of a concern than performance (in this aspect). At the very least, your Clutch driven fan would get you home if your electric was to fail. It wouldn't work the other way around. The small, very high performance fan would work great if it had multiple stages. I just couldn't see it lasting very long with such a large amp draw.

 

[john.thompson068]

No that amp draw is rediculous. I wouldn't even consider using that fan. That much draw could support over 4000 cfm with other fans so something is just not adding up. I am actually quite okay with having a mechanical fan. Since I have already upgraded my wiring and can handle a better alternator, I would like to go ahead and take advantage of that. But I need some of my questions answered about my four options. Probably option 2 or 3 would just be the easiest thing to do, but I would like to know more about how to make option 1 or the Delco a reality.


As far as the fan goes, I will spend a few hours looking over my options. I really like the Zirgio 10" fan you recommended. I'll try and get something ordered by Wednesday or Thursday so I can get it installed this weekend. As far as the alternator goes, I will give this thread some time to collect some more input before making any decisions.


Thanks you guys.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

Option 3: Denso Alternator kit (120AMP).

Out of your options, this makes the most sense. Easy install and hook-up, with plentiful power for all of your future upgrades.

I would look for something with multiple stages, if you plan on pulling a surplus of 20AMPs with an electric fan setup. That can be very hard on the electrical system. Something that draws around 10AMPs will cause absolutely no issue, even with a 60AMP alternator with aftermarket power accessories.

 

[HEMI-ITIS]

A few things i want to throw into the conversation.I use a one wire 100 amp GM large body alternator.I'm not up on the different part numbers available theses days.I never liked the stock location of the ma mopar alternators,seems like the belt was real long.When I installed this alternator,there were no MOPAR 1 wire jobs available yet so that gives you an idea how old this unit is.I also ended up mounting it on the power steering ear of the waterpump{big block} needing a pretty short belt.Just today I was at my shop figureing how to mount the alternator down low on the passenger side.The reason I had to move it,I shortened the blower snout to reduce the amount of spacer needed on the crank for pully alignment,,,,,,,,, and the alternator no longer fits where it was.Mock up was done and measurements were taken for 1 peice spacers instead of stacks of washers:icon_eyes:
The other thing,I run a dual electric fan setup from a late 90's camaro/firebird.Each fan is on it's own switch & relay.This way if one fan craps out,I can still limp home without having to get a ride to my flatbed to get home.I have NO ROOM for a puller fan :icon_compress:

 

[Revhendo]

A few things i want to throw into the conversation.I use a one wire 100 amp GM large body alternator.I'm not up on the different part numbers available theses days.I never liked the stock location of the ma mopar alternators,seems like the belt was real long.When I installed this alternator,there were no MOPAR 1 wire jobs available yet so that gives you an idea how old this unit is.I also ended up mounting it on the power steering ear of the waterpump{big block} needing a pretty short belt.Just today I was at my shop figureing how to mount the alternator down low on the passenger side.The reason I had to move it,I shortened the blower snout to reduce the amount of spacer needed on the crank for pully alignment,,,,,,,,, and the alternator no longer fits where it was.Mock up was done and measurements were taken for 1 peice spacers instead of stacks of washers:icon_eyes:
The other thing,I run a dual electric fan setup from a late 90's camaro/firebird.Each fan is on it's own switch & relay.This way if one fan craps out,I can still limp home without having to get a ride to my flatbed to get home.I have NO ROOM for a puller fan :icon_compress:

That alternator you have there is a good unit. My problems with one wire alternator is the entire relay pack. Should that puppy crap out in the middle of Nowheretown, getting a replacement could be a problem. That and the output at idle is a compromise.
The reason I recommend the 130s and 144s is for their idle capabilities and better regulator packs. They are designed to keep up with modern EFI set ups and all the new fangled bell and whistle stuff. Their output has to be more constant and reliable.

The Denso is a good unit also, but it is more of a conversion for a (don't kill me, I'm lacking word power) "racer" application. The Delcos have better abilities at lower RPM.

Perhaps I could recommend more diagnostics on the problem before throwing money at parts and conversions? The problem is obviously airflow at crawl speeds. Try a seven blade fixed fan and see what happens. (Outside of it sounding like a B-17 on a bomb run). I'm not calling this a fix, but it could be a good indicator of what needs to be done.

 

[Revhendo]

Oh, and I never get tired of seeing that blown Hemi.

 

[john.thompson068]

Just finished making some phone calls. It looks like a CS130 alternator will fit the original Chrysler bracket because the two ears on the top of the stock alternator fit behind the triangular bracket. I would need to get rid of the boomerang lower bracket and replace with a turnbuckle. This is a 105A, and I will need this many amps to power everything I have planned.. Even though it is a one wire, there is still a terminal to hook up a warning light, and the warning light will excite the alternator upon start up. The Denso 120A may have reliability issues because it is so small it may not be able to dissipate heat if used for extended periods of time on a regular basis.

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

I love it when Hemiitis posts engine **** lol



I use a one wire alt 100 amp made by tuff stuff look for them on jegs or summit $129.00 black powder coated. I f you run an MSD 6 or pertronix you can toss you voltage reg and ballast resistor.

 

[john.thompson068]

I use a one wire alt 100 amp made by tuff stuff look for them on jegs or summit $129.00 black powder coated.

That looks like a pretty good alternator. The only thing that is a drawback is that Powermaster said they do not build high output alternators using the Chrsyler design because it is too small to provide sufficient cooling and reliability. Don't flame me. I am just mentioning what they guy said. Personally I think this is a great alternative considering our options and one I will look into more. These come in one wire and three wire.

 

[john.thompson068]

I think the Powermaster 17861 (CS130) will fit with some simple modifications. It looks like I will need to buy some small pipe to make a spacer behind the back of the alternator and the cylinder head for that long bolt. The Powermaster guys said I may need get rid of the boomerang shaped lower bracket and use a turnbuckle. I have been trying to find something on the Internet to use for the lower bracket. Also, I just looked at the alternator in my 05 Monte Carlo, and it did not really look to much wider than the alternator in my Satellite. So I am wondering how much truth there is to the reliability issue I was told these alternators may have.

 

[john.thompson068]

Oh and I should also add that Mark at MAD said I the 80A alternator would not be powerful enough. I definately need a 100A or so. But that I could not go with too many Amps like 140A or above because the V belt cannot get enough grip on the alternator pulley. He explained how volts times amps equals watts, and 746 watts equals 1 hp. But that alternators only run at 40-50% efficiency so even a 100 amp alternator requires up to 4 hp to turn, but that a V belt could typically not hold that type of power and would begin to slip and burn up. Mark also thinks that even a 9 amp draw may be to much for my alternator especially at idle, and that if I cruise with the lights on I may be coming back with a dead battery. So I don't really know.

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

That looks like a pretty good alternator. The only thing that is a drawback is that Powermaster said they do not build high output alternators using the Chrsyler design because it is too small to provide sufficient cooling and reliability. Don't flame me. I am just mentioning what they guy said. Personally think this is a great alternative considering our options and one I will look into more. These come in one wire and three wire.

Flame on! lmao Just kidding

"Powermaster said they do not build high output alternators using the Chrsyler design because it is too small to provide sufficient cooling and reliability"

I guess tuff stuff didn't get that memo lol
http://www.tuffstuffperformance.com...gory_id=175/home_id=174/mode=prod/prd8124.htm

My alt works fine and the best part? It charges at idle! so while tuning with the motor running your stock alt does not charge with this on it will and does. It also stays cool with the black powder coating and won't get all oxidized on the bare aluminum.

Here are their FAQ's page you decide all I can say is I'm happy with mine. Good luck!:headbang:

http://www.tuffstuffperformance.com...ategory_ID=258/home_id=-1/mode=cat/cat258.htm

 

[john.thompson068]

It honestly sounds like the best way to go. It produces the right amps, it fits in the stock location, it'll get the job done. How many miles do you have on yours, or how long have you had it? Gut feeling tells me to just purchase a Tuff Stuff alternator and forget about it. I just want to investigate all possibilities before making placing any order.

 

[Revhendo]

You also have to remember that even though an alternator can put out (your favorite amp number here). It doesn't mean it will be operating at that amperage all the time. It's only gonna put out what's asked of it. What you are looking for is an alternator that is gonna meet your requests when you need it to. This is why you have cop cars with big honkin alternators that can arc weld at an idle to operate the lights, sirens, S.C.M.O.D.S, and coffee maker when they have you pulled over, and race cars have alternators the size of a Coke can.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

Oh and I should also add that Mark at MAD said I the 80A alternator would not be powerful enough. I definately need a 100A or so. But that I could not go with too many Amps like 140A or above because the V belt cannot get enough grip on the alternator pulley. He explained how volts times amps equals watts, and 746 watts equals 1 hp. But that alternators only run at 40-50% efficiency so even a 100 amp alternator requires up to 4 hp to turn, but that a V belt could typically not hold that type of power and would begin to slip and burn up. Mark also thinks that even a 9 amp draw may be to much for my alternator especially at idle, and that if I cruise with the lights on I may be coming back with a dead battery. So I don't really know.

I can tell you that this isn't always the case. I run the SAME alternator as you currently do, which puts out "low" amperage at idle when compared to modern alternators. I run 14V while using ALL power accessories and with the lights turned on. I believe the factory 60A alternator is enough for most applications that require minimal power accessories. That 'Tuff Stuff' alternator looks like a GREAT choice in my opinion. Get the spec sheet prior to purchase, and make a direct comparison to your other potential alternators.