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Here we go. One last time...

NJRR said:
Problem with the ball stud mount being in the wrong position is the the crank will not be square and you will torque the linkage. That was one of my biggest hesitations in trying to tackle the welding myself.
Click to expand...
I understand.
The good news on this one, if there is any, is that the z-bar looked pretty straight/"level" going across from frame to bellhousing.
Not only that, but all the bushings and such stayed put and the z-bar didn't look to be in any danger of coming off, even with the snap ring missing.

The ball stud mount is just a little too close to things - nothing ever was in a bind, though.
 
Fran Blacker said:
The ball stud's usually have flats on them for a wrench.
Click to expand...
Yes, I saw that after I finally got the whole mess out of the car.
With things as tight as they were in there, no way to get at it while in the car.
 
moparedtn said:
Yes, I saw that after I finally got the whole mess out of the car.
With things as tight as they were in there, no way to get at it while in the car.
Click to expand...
Access, how about through camber/caster adjustment hole? Remove the rubber flap?
 
NJRR said:
Problem with the ball stud mount being in the wrong position is the the crank will not be square and you will torque the linkage. That was one of my biggest hesitations in trying to tackle the welding myself.
Click to expand...
It is not really a snap ring. It is a wire made from spring material. The ends go into small holes in the tube and the other end is a loop that snaps over the tube to hold it all in place. IIRC its purpose is to locate, and hold in place the nylon bushing. My 64 Dodge has factory holes in the frame , to locate the triangle shaped plate that the left side ball is a part of. . The Z bar must be perpendicular to the frame , viewing both from the top( or bottom) and from the front or rear. ...........................MO
 
Cornpatch MO said:
It is not really a snap ring. It is a wire made from spring material. The ends go into small holes in the tube and the other end is a loop that snaps over the tube to hold it all in place. IIRC its purpose is to locate, and hold in place the nylon bushing. My 64 Dodge has factory holes in the frame , to locate the triangle shaped plate that the left side ball is a part of. . The Z bar must be perpendicular to the frame , viewing both from the top( or bottom) and from the front or rear. ...........................MO
Click to expand...
I reference an earlier post (see post #136) and the factory called it a snap ring, isn't what I'd call it. So I called that so moparedtn could see what I was saying.
 
Fran Blacker said:
Access, how about through camber/caster adjustment hole? Remove the rubber flap?
Click to expand...
What I was trying to relay is that the z-bar tube was up against the little black plastic "gasket" which was up against the base of the ball stud - which was up against the bracket on the frame - which is a 3-sided sort of "bucket".
In other words, no way to get a wrench on the flats even if I wanted to.
 
Cornpatch MO said:
It is not really a snap ring. It is a wire made from spring material. The ends go into small holes in the tube and the other end is a loop that snaps over the tube to hold it all in place. IIRC its purpose is to locate, and hold in place the nylon bushing. My 64 Dodge has factory holes in the frame , to locate the triangle shaped plate that the left side ball is a part of. . The Z bar must be perpendicular to the frame , viewing both from the top( or bottom) and from the front or rear. ...........................MO
Click to expand...

Just using the "official" Mopar terminology from the graphic, as generously provided previously in post #126:
zbar.png


In my particular case, this snap ring wasn't necessary really - there isn't currently enough play available from ball stud to ball stud for anything to move back and forth much, so everything (including the bearings) stayed in place with the snap ring totally missing.
The bearings being installed around each ball stud were held there by being inside the tube.

Yes, as I've already posted, the z-bar looked to be square and plumb where it sat.
No worries about it not hitting the frame and bellhousing @ pretty much 90 degrees.
No idea about any locating holes in frames or any of that - as I said, the ball stud bracket on the frame is welded in place, rather crudely at that.
I'm not even going to attempt to remove it and re-weld it or any such; that takes a whole lot more skill (and a lot more vehicle disassembly) than I posess.
With any luck, when the replacement engine is installed, the bellhousing may actually be positioned a little further away from the frame anyways, who knows?
There's a lot of "tolerance" built into these old cars, after all.
My BFH is on standby to perhaps modify the frame mount a tad as well.
In any event, we'll figure it out. :)
 
moparedtn said:
Just using the "official" Mopar terminology from the graphic, as generously provided previously in post #126:
View attachment 399961

In my particular case, this snap ring wasn't necessary really - there isn't currently enough play available from ball stud to ball stud for anything to move back and forth much, so everything (including the bearings) stayed in place with the snap ring totally missing.
The bearings being installed around each ball stud were held there by being inside the tube.

Yes, as I've already posted, the z-bar looked to be square and plumb where it sat.
No worries about it not hitting the frame and bellhousing @ pretty much 90 degrees.
No idea about any locating holes in frames or any of that - as I said, the ball stud bracket on the frame is welded in place, rather crudely at that.
I'm not even going to attempt to remove it and re-weld it or any such; that takes a whole lot more skill (and a lot more vehicle disassembly) than I posess.
With any luck, when the replacement engine is installed, the bellhousing may actually be positioned a little further away from the frame anyways, who knows?
There's a lot of "tolerance" built into these old cars, after all.
My BFH is on standby to perhaps modify the frame mount a tad as well.
In any event, we'll figure it out. :)
Click to expand...
Not having the parts in front of me, but wouldn't that " snap ring" also prevent the nylon bushings from receding back in the tube which would result in the tube end coming up against the frame or ball stud mount? Which could result in binding? .. Yes, I am picky about stuff like that LOL.............................MO
 
Cornpatch MO said:
Not having the parts in front of me, but wouldn't that " snap ring" also prevent the nylon bushings from receding back in the tube which would result in the tube end coming up against the frame or ball stud mount? Which could result in binding? .. Yes, I am picky about stuff like that LOL.............................MO
Click to expand...
Yep, that's the purpose of it I suppose.
The seals shown at either end are actually black plastic and fairly hard - they are what was keeping the z-bar tube from actually grinding against the ball stud on both sides in my case, though, preventing any binding.
It will be interesting to compare the new ones against these - I have a sneaking suspicion these were being worn away at by the z-bar tube.

Oh, almost forgot - now is also the time to try out Brewer's instructions for removing the spring from the clutch pedal inside the car!
 
The more I thought about the instructions from Brewer's on the over-center spring removal, the more it seemed to me they actually have it ***-backwards - I'd imagine the clutch pedal would need to be depressed so that the coils in the spring would be more spread apart, allowing one to insert said washers between them, right?

Since I'm up in the middle of the night anyways (it's a pain thing; actually hope you don't ever have to understand), I went looking for a video or something on the subject.
Nothing on the Centerforce website.
Nothing found on youtube, least by me.

Searched the Mopar Muscle archives and came up with this:
"To first remove the spring, have someone depress the clutch pedal while you insert washers into the spring so that they “pinch” between the spring’s coils when the pedal is released. Once you have enough washers inserted, release the pedal, and the spring should come out with just a little persuasion."
They were helpful enough to include a pic:
over-center spring.png



Ok, that makes more sense to me.
The part that doesn't is the part where you have someone else depress the pedal while you somehow also fit in the same space as them and force these washers in there.
Seems like things would get a tad crowded?
I don't know.
About to find out....
 
I agree with cornpatch about need for the snap ring. It may not be possible for you to use it? Do you have holes for it? One thing you might look at, I think they have ball studs of different lengths? I converted my car from an auto to a 4 speed, but it's a 65. Had to do some monkey work to get it right but have one more thing to iron out. Clutch rod coming out through firewall is to close to passengers side so boot doesn't fit. That's going to be fixed when I change trans front seal. I had to modify my bell crank and I missed that, oh crap.
 
Fran Blacker said:
I agree with cornpatch about need for the snap ring. It may not be possible for you to use it? Do you have holes for it? One thing you might look at, I think they have ball studs of different lengths? I converted my car from an auto to a 4 speed, but it's a 65. Had to do some monkey work to get it right but have one more thing to iron out. Clutch rod coming out through firewall is to close to passengers side so boot doesn't fit. That's going to be fixed when I change trans front seal. I had to modify my bell crank and I missed that, oh crap.
Click to expand...
According to Brewer's, the ball stud on the bellhousing has a 7/8" shoulder on it and the z-bar/bellcrank is supposed to actually be able to slide over it all the way, bottoming out against the bellhousing when assembling things/taking things apart.

The ball stud on the frame side has a 1" shoulder and the z-bar can, at best, butt up against it, not pass over it like on the other end.

That's apparently how you put one of these together - you put the seal on the bellhousing side ball stud, followed by the bearing halves - then slide the z-bar over the whole thing.
Next, assemble the frame side of things the same way, ending up with the frame side ball stud sticking out of the z-bar the set length the snap ring sets as it retains the bearings for that side.

Finally, you put the nut and washer on the frame side ball stud and lower it into the bracket on the frame, then tighten it down.
Done.

Light bulb just lit up over my head. I get it now! :)
 
Well now, this is interesting. Here's my actual z-bar:

IMG_20170227_115932537.jpg


Not exactly what's shown in the diagram above, eh?
There's one little hole there that does pass all the way into the inside. The larger hole to the right and down from the little one is actually threaded - and I'm guessing a grease fitting/zerk should be screwed into it.
There are no other corresponding little holes opposite this one - or anywhere else, for that matter.
(Not sure what that little divot next to the arm is supposed to be - it doesn't pass all the way through).

Is this what you other 4 speed guys have for a z-bar or is this one wonky?
 
Again, from Brewer's website:
snap ring.jpg

"Torque shaft bearing retainer wire, small ends protrude through torque shaft tube holes on frame end (into the groove of bearing 1/2), then snaps over tube, holding torque shaft location on frame side."

So the little fingers are supposed to locate in the actual groove of the bearing....
wonder why my z-bar only has one hole?
Wonder if I have the correct z-bar at all?

EDIT: I'll answer my own question here.
Again, referring to the Brewer's website, my torque shaft (z-bar) is supposed to be 9" long.
Check, mine is.
Also according to their website, the arm for the linkage going to the clutch fork is supposed to be welded 1 1/4" from the end of the tube.
Nope. Mine is 3/4" from the end. :-(

I have the wrong z-bar. Of course. New one is $90!! Son of a....

Ok, so what z-bar DO I have?
The next one up on their web page indicates a z-bar that fits big block 1970-1971 E-body/1971-4 B-body applications with 10.5" bellhousing and the bar for the clutch fork is welded, you guessed it, 3/4" from the end of the tubing.
It also says "WILL NOT FIT 11" CAST IRON BELLHOUSINGS".
Great. Just great. Reckon that's this one....sort of.

How the heck was the arm for the clutch fork rod lining up so nice with my clutch fork then? I checked some more....conclusion:
This one has obviously been modified! The bar passing down to connect with the clutch rod has a little bit more offset on it than the "correct" one; that's how they did it.
Someone has "made" a z-bar for my car out of a "wrong" one.
Let me explain how I arrived at that:
When you look at the pic for the correct z-bar for my car ('68 b-body, 11" bellhousing), the end of the bar going down that the clutch rod attaches to
is supposed to be pretty much even with the end of the z-bar tube itself.
(The one for the 1970-1971 E-body/1971-4 B-body shows the clutch rod side arm offsetting beyond the end of the tube considerably, by comparison).
This "homemade" z-bar is set up just like that!
Obviously, whoever modified this one knew what they were doing whilst butchering the wrong part. :)
Net result is that the clutch rod side of things lines up nicely with the clutch rod going into the fork.

Since both z-bars are the same exact length (9"), either will fit the same between the frame and the bellhousing ball studs as well, so that's a wash.

Conclusion:
It's not the right z-bar - but it ain't the "wrong" one, either.
It'll work. :)
 
Last edited:
Looking at the weld on the arm in picture, I wonder if someone modified an arm to work. I had to do that, and I'm fixing my screw up. I bought a BB bell crank from Passon and it wouldn't work, my problem not theirs. Probably because of blow shield, it was to long. That small hole is to far in to hold nylon bushing.
 
Fran Blacker said:
Looking at the weld on the arm in picture, I wonder if someone modified an arm to work. I had to do that, and I'm fixing my screw up. I bought a BB bell crank from Passon and it wouldn't work, my problem not theirs. Probably because of blow shield, it was to long. That small hole is to far in to hold nylon bushing.
Click to expand...
Yep, that's the conclusion I have arrived at in my post above.
I reckon if I want to use that snap thingy, I'll be drilling my own holes, though. :)
Can anyone give me an idea of how far inboard those holes are on the tube, please?
 
I know on one end nylon bearing only go in so far and stops. Other end don't know or forgot. The inside on the end is only machined so in and the machining stops. You would have to find out where the groove in bushing is when assembled. Then remove it and drill holes. You might want to go with what you have or make slight changes to make it easier to assemble. Did the clutch linkage work ok before?
 
Fran Blacker said:
I know on one end nylon bearing only go in so far and stops. Other end don't know or forgot. The inside on the end is only machined so in and the machining stops. You would have to find out where the groove in bushing is when assembled. Then remove it and drill holes. You might want to go with what you have or make slight changes to make it easier to assemble. Did the clutch linkage work ok before?
Click to expand...
You are correct for both ends, Fran - in both ends, the machining goes in so far, then stops - so I measured them on this particular one.
On the frame side, the machining goes in approx. 1.25".
On the bellhousing side, the machining goes in approx. 2.75".
I wonder if anyone else could verify those measurements on one of their "correct" ones?

I would make the assumption that the machining goes deeper on the bellhousing side because that's the side that's supposed to be able to pass entirely over the ball stud when installing the z-bar (or taking it out)?
Funny thing about that, too - I wasn't very successful when removing the z-bar in getting much lateral movement out of it one way or the other, even with there being no snap ring installed.
I didn't know then that the thing was supposed to be able to pass over the ball stud on that side, though.

Oh, to answer your last question - yes, things seemed to work just fine. :)
 
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