440 engine help

[plymouthman]

Using the 69s bottom end in the 77 block is what I'm wanting to do.
I want the forged crank and compression pistons ,
I keep reading from everyone about the thrust bearing being different but can't find a kit for the swap. It's a common swap using a forged crank in place out the cast crank , but even summit tech dept can't seem to help. And some bearing kits are for early and some are for late blocks and some Even say 66 to 78 . I'm so confused on what main bearings to get. I don't want to have to buy 2 or 3 sets just to make up one set.

 

[Seax440Dodge]

you can use the pre-74 smaller diameter thrust bearing in the later block, just not the other way around

 

[plymouthman]

you can use the pre-74 smaller diameter thrust bearing in the later block, just not the other way around

So just order a set of 69 bearings and put it together. Wow , I was really over thinking that one. I thought I would need a special bearing , although the blocks size didn't change , just had webbing put in.
Thanks seax440Dodge , and thanks to everyone else also

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I have been trying to figure out if my carb choice is going to be to small for this build.
750 holey race carb.
I know that the 915s are good heads but are also limited on flow so I didn't want to over carb it. Nor do I rally want to under carb it.

 

[plymouthman]

OK I may have misunderstood. Did you mean ,, buy the Maine to fit the year block I'm using or the crank I'm using. I'm thinking the block. In other words , order a set of 77 bearings. But please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Seax440Dodge]

with the later block it'll work either way, but if there's any question the pre-74 bearing will work in any block

1,2,4, and 5 are the same for all years.. here's a pic of the later and earlier #3 bearing cap



74 and later is on top, and the pre-74 one is on the bottom, so the bearing kits that say 66-78 will have the smaller pre-74 bearing in it, so for your peace of mind since you're going to use the 77 block you can use any year

 

[plymouthman]

Not really sure but will I need a new set of bearings ? 55k on the originals isn't much and what about the rings from the 77 pistons,, can I use them on the 69 pistons . would the 77 block with 55k on it have a ridge. I wouldn't think it would need anything more than just a hone job to break the glaze. Am I wrong or could I us the 77s original bearings, rings, and just bone the bores ???

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Thank you seax440dodge , I get it now. That pic really helped, I just didn't really understand until I seen that

 

[plymouthman]

Well I went and picked up the 77 440 today, it fired right up, purred like a kitten, revved up smooth and the tranny shifted smooth , I got the engine, tranny, engine harness, driveshaft, and motor mounts. Along with the fender mounted blinkers that were in amazing shape. All for $600

 

[plymouthman]

Well my buddy and I was talking and I don't think I'm gonna tear this engine a apart. Thinking I'm just gonna put my cam , heads, intake , carb and headers on it and run it as it is.
My original plan was to take one of my 400s and the 69 crank and build a 451 stroker. Think I'm going to stick with that.
Just gonna get this engine together to get my car on the road for next seasons car shows and Cruz's

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With a 509 cam, 750 DP , gasket matched - ported & polished 915 heads, 1 7\8 hooker headers , 3500 stall , and 4:10 posi rear in a 3800 lbs. 73 roadrunner
Should be a fun car to drive.

 

[plymouthman]

OK all, I very much appreciated all the responses. But I have another ? I want to use the 69 440 steel crank and rods to eventually build my 451 stroker. So that leaves the pistons ,,, I'm thinking maybe use the 69s pistons in the 77 block with new rings and bearings. The 69s are taller for more compression. Its been done before I'm sure , but what issues should I be aware of.
I downloaded a virtual dyno and put in my build specs using the stock 77 pistons. It said 443 HP 465 ft lb torque. Would like to bring that up a little

 

[Seax440Dodge]

451... stroker? You know by just punching a 440 +.060 you're already at 452 cubes....

I think you need to do some research and get some experience under your belt, then worry about a stroker

 

[HT413]

OK all, I very much appreciated all the responses. But I have another ? I want to use the 69 440 steel crank and rods to eventually build my 451 stroker. So that leaves the pistons ,,, I'm thinking maybe use the 69s pistons in the 77 block with new rings and bearings. The 69s are taller for more compression. Its been done before I'm sure , but what issues should I be aware of.
I downloaded a virtual dyno and put in my build specs using the stock 77 pistons. It said 443 HP 465 ft lb torque. Would like to bring that up a little

Wait, so we all understand, you're saying your plan is to swap only the 69 pistons into the 77 block, then save the 69 crank and rods for later use in the stroker? If that's the case, a 451 stroker uses the 440 crank and rods in a 400 block and needs a totally different piston - can't use the 440 or 400 pistons. All that work for 11 cubes?

 

[plymouthman]

Uh yes. unless I can save my pennies and get a larger stroker kit from 440 source. But for now with the 69 pistons, with them being a little taller,, will I need to get the bottom end balanced or just put the pistons in and run it.

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And yes seax440dodge ,I did know that and I already have the .060 pistons . I like the threads and info that I've found on using a 440 crank and Rods in a 400. Wine up like a small block with the power of a big block.
But that for later. When their is more $$$

 

[HT413]

Sorry , didn't mean to be captain obvious there, but it seems to me you could spend your money a little differently and get a lot more HP. Why not just keep the 77 motor totally stock (since it runs great), and run that for now as is. then focus all of your effort on building either the 451 or the 1969 440.

Since you already have the 440, your best HP per $$ would be to build it to save the costs on 400 block, machine the crank and expensive stroker piston and invest that cash in cylinder heads. Dollar for dollar that 440 will out perform the 451 since you were able to invest in heads.

 

[plymouthman]

I wasn't trying to be smart with you. I apologize if it sounded that way. It will be a while before i will have enough $ to buy a set of heads. And am looking for the most hp using what parts I have on hand for right now. And save for the bigger build later.

 

[forphorty]

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=249866

 

[plymouthman]

Very cool thread. Thanks for sending me the link

 

[HT413]

I wasn't trying to be smart with you. I apologize if it sounded that way. It will be a while before i will have enough $ to buy a set of heads. And am looking for the most hp using what parts I have on hand for right now. And save for the bigger build later.

Lol no, I really sounded like a dope for sure. Just took me by surprise because up till that point I thought we were talking about building 2 440's. I've gone through the same sort of thought process myself over the past couple of years. I bought a car that turned out had a very low compression 413 in it and I hemmed and hawwed for a long time - swap pistons to raise compression, super charge it, turbo charge it? Heck, at one point my dad wanted to build a 383 with me until he just as quickly backed out. Then I was all set to build a 440 when I found a 400/451 stroker set up for a nice price.

I eventually decided to just run the 413 as is and add some bolt on parts (only buying parts that could go into a 440), or even a 400/451, with the obvious exception of the intake, etc. because this way I get the fun of fooling with this motor, driving my car NOW while gradually stockpiling parts for a future build - the future, in my case being NOW. For fun factor and for budget, this made the most sense in my case.

 

[1969superbee]

X2. I had a 78 440 block and a 69 block when deciding to build my 440 six pack motor. Not being worried about numbers matching or date correctness I went with the 78. It's definitely a beefier block than the 69 no question about it.

Sounds like a good plan to me. According to 440source website, later blocks are not thin wall, that's a myth. They are technically a better block due to thicker webbing in the mains plus more support webs around the skirt. Not that means anything to someone like you or me who aren't looking to push the horsepower limits of the block.

Before going through the hassle of swapping rotating assemblies, have you measured the pistons those 69 pistons to be sure they are what you think they are?

 

[Garys1969RR]

Best to just get your 77-440 engine running as good as you can. You will need to re curve the distributor, and decide what heads/cam you are going to use. The later engines (1977) had lower compression mainly due to the pistons being further down in the bore at TDC. Plus some of them had a dished top. The 69 pistons will have a taller Compression Height than the 77 ones, with no dish. The 906 heads from the 69 motor will have smaller chambers (86 to 88 cc). While the 452 heads have slightly larger chambers (about 90 cc). Although factory blueprint specs are less. Its always a balance of budget, what parts you have, what HP you shoot for, and how much work and time you are willing to spend. Best to just enjoy the hobby, and learn as you go. Good luck!

 

[plymouthman]

I'm listening to ya HT413. And actually I was considering building 2 motors. So you want really wrong. My original plan was to build a 451 stroker. So I ended up grabbing every engine I could find at a good price. I ended up with a 78 440 , 69 440 , 73 400 & a 78 400. All complete engines. Then I ran across this 77 440 & tranny with 55k original miles on them for 600 and I got the motor mounts, driveshaft and a couple odds & ends. . Hell I couldn't turn that down. then decided I just want to get this car motoring.
Now I'm leaning towards just building the 77 up a little at a time . as it is. But using the 69s pistons will put me higher in the HP & ft lbs area for the add one later. Heads , bigger carb ext.

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And Gary, I'm using 915 heads pocket port and polish and gasket matched. 509 cam