440 Internal or External Balanced

[Chukar]

Pro

The easiest thing would be swap in a set of LY factory rods or a set of aftermarket rods. I'm assuming you are trying to stay on budget. Balance would be close enough then. Measure the compression. Get the part number from the converter.Then come up with a plan. Are you planning on cam swap? How did it run aside from the vibration?
Doug

 

[RemCharger]

As stated- best case scenario is to get some different lighter rods and balance the assembly. Well, if its a max perf build

 

[1 Wild R/T]

As stated- best case scenario is to get some different lighter rods and balance the assembly. Well, if its a max perf build

If it is a max performance build the rods & pistons both get replaced with lighter parts... Those pistons may say Sealed Power but they are based on the old TRW design & they are heavy... So yeah, the standard balancer isn't set up for that unless there had been mallory metal welded to the crank... And there isn't...

 

[Challenger340]

As usual I'm late to the party..... but seeing as how I DO see the Engine is now dis-assembled, because apparently it had a 'Balance" problem ?
Why not just get the Pistons pushed off the Rods.....
and go get the entire assembly Balanced properly prior to re-assembly ?

I mean it's just not THAT expensive to get a Bobweight worked up with the Pistons off the Rods... and get the Crank spun up with the Bobweights on a Crank Balancing Machine and SEE just "where" or how far out things are ?
I mean one way or the other it's gotta get fixed right ?

I mean even if you press one Piston off a Rod to get a Rod small/big end split, Piston/Pin/Rings weight..... it's close enough to get a Bobweight and send the Crank out with Balancer/Oil Slinger/Timing Gear and Flexplate installed to get it spun ?
Otherwise.... merely 'guessing' on compatible Rods etc., etc is a gong show waste of time.

 

[1 Wild R/T]

As usual I'm late to the party..... but seeing as how I DO see the Engine is now dis-assembled, because apparently it had a 'Balance" problem ?
Why not just get the Pistons pushed off the Rods.....
and go get the entire assembly Balanced properly prior to re-assembly ?

I mean it's just not THAT expensive to get a Bobweight worked up with the Pistons off the Rods... and get the Crank spun up with the Bobweights on a Crank Balancing Machine and SEE just "where" or how far out things are ?
I mean one way or the other it's gotta get fixed right ?

I mean even if you press one Piston off a Rod to get a Rod small/big end split, Piston/Pin/Rings weight..... it's close enough to get a Bobweight and send the Crank out with Balancer/Oil Slinger/Timing Gear and Flexplate installed to get it spun ?
Otherwise.... merely 'guessing' on compatible Rods etc., etc is a gong show waste of time.

I agree 1000%

 

[dvw]

Balance is never a bad thing. But about cost possibly in this case. To use the existing rods this motor would need at a minimum a B&M flexplate (or a specific balance converter) and a expensive heavy rod crank damper. Aftermarket rods would probably be cheaper. Though the bobweight may be lighter there are plenty of motors with this combo that were never balanced. It's all about where you want to draw the line.
Doug

 

[dvw]

With a little research I see 440 source sells a bolt on weight (#200 1139) for the standard balancer for a heavy rod motor. This combined with the Mopar weld on weight package (4120241) could do the trick. Total cost less than $100. The B&M flexplate 10238 doesnt apear to be available any longer.
Doug

 

[Challenger340]

Balance is never a bad thing. But about cost possibly in this case. To use the existing rods this motor would need at a minimum a B&M flexplate (or a specific balance converter) and a expensive heavy rod crank damper. Aftermarket rods would probably be cheaper. Though the bobweight may be lighter there are plenty of motors with this combo that were never balanced. It's all about where you want to draw the line.
Doug

It's all speculation until an actual bobweight is known ?
and although I would agree the 6 pack rods on an LY Rod Balanced Crank with the front & rear counterweights already drilled for the LY Rods with neutral Harmonic and Flexplate can be problematic ?
That said....
I've seen lots of LY Rod drilled Forged Cranks that were only out 20-25 grams either plane and were easily doable by putting the 6 pack Rod small ends on a diet without adding heavy metal ?
or,
IF the current CR is a problem and buying Pistons anyways to raise CR ? Then merely switching to SRP Pistons and many others which are substantially lighter may facilitate an easier Balance condition with the Neutral Harmonic/Flexplate as well ?

 

[RemCharger]

I built a L2295 forged crank 6pk rod race engine for a friend.. It was eating main bearings.. Sent it to the best machinest around and he balanced it neutral . Balanced, and no extra weights.

 

[Chukar]

If it is a max performance build the rods & pistons both get replaced with lighter parts... Those pistons may say Sealed Power but they are based on the old TRW design & they are heavy... So yeah, the standard balancer isn't set up for that unless there had been mallory metal welded to the crank... And there isn't...

OK. Thanks for the input

 

[Chukar]

As usual I'm late to the party..... but seeing as how I DO see the Engine is now dis-assembled, because apparently it had a 'Balance" problem ?
Why not just get the Pistons pushed off the Rods.....
and go get the entire assembly Balanced properly prior to re-assembly ?

I mean it's just not THAT expensive to get a Bobweight worked up with the Pistons off the Rods... and get the Crank spun up with the Bobweights on a Crank Balancing Machine and SEE just "where" or how far out things are ?
I mean one way or the other it's gotta get fixed right ?

I mean even if you press one Piston off a Rod to get a Rod small/big end split, Piston/Pin/Rings weight..... it's close enough to get a Bobweight and send the Crank out with Balancer/Oil Slinger/Timing Gear and Flexplate installed to get it spun ?
Otherwise.... merely 'guessing' on compatible Rods etc., etc is a gong show waste of time.

OK. A lot to digest
And what is/are Bobweights?

 

[Chukar]

With a little research I see 440 source sells a bolt on weight (#200 1139) for the standard balancer for a heavy rod motor. This combined with the Mopar weld on weight package (4120241) could do the trick. Total cost less than $100. The B&M flexplate 10238 doesnt apear to be available any longer.
Doug

OK This is great info and thanks for research
I have a lot to digest Moving forward
I have a great machinist/engine builder involved now and some ideas of his own I’m sure
I’m thinking I want to step the CR up some so prolly different pistons. I have one rod bearing showing a wear spot that we’ll need to explore
Unfortunately my builder just tested positive for the Rona so it’ll be awhile
Thanks again you people are awesome
I’m learning from you guys like drinking from a fire hose

 

[Chukar]

I built a L2295 forged crank 6pk rod race engine for a friend.. It was eating main bearings.. Sent it to the best machinest around and he balanced it neutral . Balanced, and no extra weights.

Thanks. Makes sense

 

[Chukar]

It's all speculation until an actual bobweight is known ?
and although I would agree the 6 pack rods on an LY Rod Balanced Crank with the front & rear counterweights already drilled for the LY Rods with neutral Harmonic and Flexplate can be problematic ?
That said....
I've seen lots of LY Rod drilled Forged Cranks that were only out 20-25 grams either plane and were easily doable by putting the 6 pack Rod small ends on a diet without adding heavy metal ?
or,
IF the current CR is a problem and buying Pistons anyways to raise CR ? Then merely switching to SRP Pistons and many others which are substantially lighter may facilitate an easier Balance condition with the Neutral Harmonic/Flexplate as well ?

Thanks That makes sense

 

[Chukar]

As stated- best case scenario is to get some different lighter rods and balance the assembly. Well, if its a max perf build

I’m wanting a very strong street drivability build
Swapping the heavy rods out seem to “get rid” of problems but exploring options. Keep input coming please

 

[Curiousyellow71]

From what you have described wanting a strong dependable engine I would suggest you balance it and buy aftermarket rods.
The heavy 6 pack rods I would NOT invest any money in, they are not heavy in a good way.. I would consider spending money on LY rods if less then 500-550hp , BUT.. resizing LY rods with arp bolts gets you $ closer to a NICE aftermarket rod set.. The aftermarket rods are typically lighter and handle more hp.
Piston choice really depends on what you want to do in the future? Your current pistons being forged are durable enough, and decent for the street. I would consider getting 050-.070 shaved off the heads and use a .020 head gasket... and be in the mid 9s or higher depending on how far your pistons are down from the deck.

 

[Challenger340]

Engine has heavy 6-Pack Rods, and the Engine has a "Vibration" problem
Engine is now dis-assembled
Wants more CR ?????

= Buy Lighter/higher CR Pistons and get Engine Rotating Assembly Balanced

You are chasing your tail in circles trying to "by guess by golly" guessing around what parts will or won't work without Balancing ?
IT WILL NEED TO BE BALANCED !
That's the ONLY way to fix the vibration problem properly !

The only question is what parts you are sending within the rotating Assembly for Balancing to ensure the vibration problem is fixed
1.) Lighter Rods either LY or aftermarket ?
and
2.) Lighter Pistons with more CR if that is also desired.

Time to get off your wallet and just get it fixed according to whatever you desire from above.

IMO,
4 pages to figure this out is ridiculous ?

 

[Chukar]

Engine has heavy 6-Pack Rods, and the Engine has a "Vibration" problem
Engine is now dis-assembled
Wants more CR ?????

= Buy Lighter/higher CR Pistons and get Engine Rotating Assembly Balanced

You are chasing your tail in circles trying to "by guess by golly" guessing around what parts will or won't work without Balancing ?
IT WILL NEED TO BE BALANCED !
That's the ONLY way to fix the vibration problem properly !

The only question is what parts you are sending within the rotating Assembly for Balancing to ensure the vibration problem is fixed
1.) Lighter Rods either LY or aftermarket ?
and
2.) Lighter Pistons with more CR if that is also desired.

Time to get off your wallet and just get it fixed according to whatever you desire from above.

IMO,
4 pages to figure this out is ridiculous ?

OK......

 

[1 Wild R/T]

OK......

He's right.... Do you seriously want to guess on what fixes it, completely reassemble the engine, put it in the car & discover your guess didn't fix it? Balancing isn't very expensive.... do it once, do it right.....

 

[Chukar]

He's right.... Do you seriously want to guess on what fixes it, completely reassemble the engine, put it in the car & discover your guess didn't fix it? Balancing isn't very expensive.... do it once, do it right.....