A little different twist ... has anyone went to EFI and regretted it?

[slepr1]

Once my EFI breaks down again, it's back to a carb. I can buy a carb and it'll be delivered tomorrow and be cheaper than any part that breaks down on an efi. Efi works great when it works but longevity is a problem.

 

[Kern Dog]

Sorry Kern, but I have to disagree with you on this.

Yes, fuel injection does help meet emission standards

You disagreed but then made the same point that I did.
Fuel injection was more precise which resulted in lower emissions. Further development with fuel mapping made more power but power was not the primary reason the new cars were switched over.

 

[Rusty knuckles]

Interesting reading the responses. I've never run efi on any of my old cars. I've looked into it and never felt the juice was worth the squeeze. It seems most folks biggest argument for it is eliminating the need to tune during varied driving conditions. But then spend a lot of time tuning the efi with the added bonus of extra failure points which aren't quickly fixed with a trip to the store. So I don't really get it. If you are struggling with a carb you have something wrong. If you can't tune a carb you aren't gonna have any better luck with efi. I drive my charger from 2500ft to 5500 feet all the time. I don't have to rejet every 1000ft. It's a little fat up high but it's not like it makes the car run poorly.

 

[Richard Cranium]

I've looked into it and never felt the juice was worth the squeeze.

 

[rmchrgr]

Interesting reading the responses. I've never run efi on any of my old cars. I've looked into it and never felt the juice was worth the squeeze. It seems most folks biggest argument for it is eliminating the need to tune during varied driving conditions. But then spend a lot of time tuning the efi with the added bonus of extra failure points which aren't quickly fixed with a trip to the store. So I don't really get it. If you are struggling with a carb you have something wrong. If you can't tune a carb you aren't gonna have any better luck with efi. I drive my charger from 2500ft to 5500 feet all the time. I don't have to rejet every 1000ft. It's a little fat up high but it's not like it makes the car run poorly.

I don't know that EFI eliminates the need for tuning for varied conditions but once it's learned sufficiently, the software has the ability to adjust for conditions the the fly. Honestly, you wouldn't even notice it. That's the advertising again. It's plug and play to a certain extent but the user has to take an active role for it to be optimal.

Also, I haven't seen much in the way of carburetor or distributor ignition related parts readily available in any parts store for many years. Maybe you find a couple things in the Help! section but not as normal stock. I know some places that carry them for certain customers but generally parts stores in the business of making money and keeping inventory on parts that have been obsolete for 40 years does not seem like a successful business practice. At least in the Holley Sniper, the actual injectors are readily available in any parts store as well as the electrical connectors.

 

[tonysrt]

My 80 carbed Honda Civic with 205,000 miles never had a carb issue and it was 5 speed stick, so a lot of stepping on the gas. My 58 Fury with the 350 & 2 4 bbls. and 147,000 miles never had a carb problem. It seems the only problem EFI is the aftermarket units. Factory EFI has their act together.

 

[Hey-O]

You see this more everyday!

 

[Rusty knuckles]

I don't know that EFI eliminates the need for tuning for varied conditions but once it's learned sufficiently, the software has the ability to adjust for conditions the the fly. Honestly, you wouldn't even notice it. That's the advertising again. It's plug and play to a certain extent but the user has to take an active role for it to be optimal.

Also, I haven't seen much in the way of carburetor or distributor ignition related parts readily available in any parts store for many years. Maybe you find a couple things in the Help! section but not as normal stock. I know some places that carry them for certain customers but generally parts stores in the business of making money and keeping inventory on parts that have been obsolete for 40 years does not seem like a successful business practice. At least in the Holley Sniper, the actual injectors are readily available in any parts store as well as the electrical connectors.

I dunno I've had good luck with getting condensers, cap and rotor, fuel pumps, carb kits, etc. They're not out front but the parts guys always seem to be able to pull one out from the back room. Most I waited was a day for my carb kit that I didn't want to drive 30 miles to a different store for so I had them bring it to me.

Where do you find an ecu for an aftermarket efi?

 

[rmchrgr]

Where do you find an ecu for an aftermarket efi?

Auto Zone Help! section of course.

I haven't used a points ignition for decades and I can't imagine many people still do. My cheap Sears dwell meter crapped out on me in the 90s. But hey, if you're that dedicated to "the old way", my hat's off to you. That old stock is dwindling though and won't always be readily available since no one actually makes thoe parts in any sort of volume these days. But whatever, you do what you do.

Anything has the potential to fail and leave you stranded, aftermarket EFI is no different. How any times do you read about someone keeping an Orange ignition box or extra ballast resistors or voltage regulators in the glove box? A couple cars I've bought over the years had this type of thing going on. I'd look at the wiring and find it was all chewed up or what have you. I'd fix the wiring and never had to change one component.

All I'm saying is that the stories of straight-up failures are (IMO at least) because of user error or some other circumstance like bad wiring etc.

Again, I'll cite the text straight Holley refurbished carb store as an example;

"This is an official Holley Performance Factory Refurbished Carburetor. Factory Refurbished carbs are NOT old worn-out carbs that have been rebuilt. They are carbs that were returned under warranty. When these carbs are returned, we check them out and most of the time there is nothing wrong with them. Generally, they were simply adjusted out of working range by the installer."

These are carburetors we're talking about here now, NOT EFI. The way it was back in the day yada yada. If carbs are so easy and reliable, why does Holley say this right on their webpage? User error.

Pretty eye opening, especially coming from the people that have been making and selling carbs since the 1920s. It's the same with all these purported EFI failures. Do the job right and it's fine. When you take shortcuts, cheap out on parts or believe things just work right out of the box without engaging your brain you suffer the consequences in any instance.

 

[1967coronet]

It's a mind set, next time it snows how many will walk past that old trusty snow shovel to get to that snowblower. To each their own.

Does that snow blower have a carb or efi ?

 

[themechanic]

I don't know that EFI eliminates the need for tuning for varied conditions but once it's learned sufficiently, the software has the ability to adjust for conditions the the fly. Honestly, you wouldn't even notice it. That's the advertising again. It's plug and play to a certain extent but the user has to take an active role for it to be optimal.

Also, I haven't seen much in the way of carburetor or distributor ignition related parts readily available in any parts store for many years. Maybe you find a couple things in the Help! section but not as normal stock. I know some places that carry them for certain customers but generally parts stores in the business of making money and keeping inventory on parts that have been obsolete for 40 years does not seem like a successful business practice. At least in the Holley Sniper, the actual injectors are readily available in any parts store as well as the electrical connectors.

I think one of my injectors is bad. What's the part number or post a link where I can buy one.

Thanks

 

[Jeff Peterson]

Does that snow blower have a carb or efi ?

 

[Budnicks]

*I know it's a different animal
I'm not anti-carb, or anti-EFI either,
both have their place & their own technology, pros-conns

in fact I think everyone should own & drive a
2 x 4bbl or a 3 x 2bbl be-it EFI or Carbs
(especially Holley 4500 Dominator/1450 dual feed or split-carbs &
2300 series Holley style/6bbl-SixPack, Quikfeul is my personal preferences)

personally, on a NA engine WOT, drag racing application
(even roundy round/Nascar, made slightly more power with carbs)
I think the properly tuned Carb can make more raw HP

the ability to tune/change the 'fuel map' on the EFI
at every RPM range & at different timed increments, not just WOT
aides some fine-tuning too
(Drag racing is pretty much WOT all the time)

I ran mechanical Fuel Injection in drag racing
& Sprint cars for decades, usually alochol/methanol, a lil' hp boost
keeps engine cooler too, especially boosted/blown
straight comparison dual carbs 2 x 1,500cfm = 3,000cfm flowing
or 4 x 2bbl 750cfm/split Dominators, each carb opening more or less
sitting over a cylinder port on the fabbed or aftermarket production intake
or Stack FI flowed depending on stack length/diameter
2,200-2,400cfm average (BBC Crower)
or a hat on a Tunnel Ram
with an Enderle Bug Catcher Hat 2287cfm flowing (or 4 port Hilborn)
you can get a bit more cfm, by knife edging the butterflys
& recessing the screws etc.
(even though less cfm than the 2 or 4 (split) Holley Doninator carbs,
but better fuel control, more constant flow, increasing with RPM
180a pump managment/pressure with bypasses & pills or nozzle changes)
I saw a 0.15 to 0.20 et improvement over carbs, exact same combo

Enderle Bird Catcher 4605cfm flowing
(good for Blown Alcohol or just big cid NA alcohol/methanol)

Enderle Buzzard 5994cfm flowing
(all out Big CID Gas or Alcohol, Fuel Hemi's, until about 2010)

*Albeit most here will never-ever see
1,350-1,400+ hp NA on a 4.60" bore 3.75" stroke
or let alone 10,500+ rpm levels, or 1" valve lift 500cfm ports flow
it's an example, to look at EFI vs Carbs
*NHRA Pro-Stock has switched to EFI since 2016
just now 7th year in, running them
and with great RAD/mineshaft air (200' below sea level RAD)
& track conditions
they are just now almost caught up/only this year's 3 races in
at the Gator Nationals to the ET records 6.46-ish
(IIRC 6.455in 2015 with carbs @ 215.55 in 2014, MPH is raw HP)
off the 4 x 2bbl Split-Dominator Carbs,
& they still haven't surpassed them yet
(a couple mph down currently too 210 vs 212+)
albeit they've also had a 10,500 RPM limiter now too...
Every well-tuned P/S combo is bouncing off the rev limiter at the stripe

But
It's coming around

the P/S guys were fighting it at 1st & most have now embraced it

I think NASCAR is the same, they are creeping up on it there too
but they've changed so many other things on the car
comparing 3 years ago to today is like
apples vs watermelons in comparison, are way different

if you like it go for it, if you don't like them, then don't go for it
not really an argument here

good luck, Happy MoParing

 

[chtampa]

EFI follows the same route as numbers matching. Peoples idea of "purity" runs different directions. I love mine on my non-numbers matching so much I put the same thing on my Scout II. Reach in and turn the key and it starts. Turn the key off and it quits. The car looks pure and that is good enough for me. Adjust it on the fly and it controls fans also. It's like having a girl that never complains.

 

[Hey-O]

Does that snow blower have a carb or efi ?

 

[rmchrgr]

I think one of my injectors is bad. What's the part number or post a link where I can buy one.

Thanks

I’m not saying it’s an exact match and I can’t claim to have done this myself so I apologize for making my statement seem like you could walk into a parts store and get exactly what you need. However, if you had a bad injector and and were stuck, you could buy one to get you home then order the proprietary one from Holley.

They are supposedly based off LS3 injectors spec’d to Holley’s design. I believe they physically fit but may require some amount of programming/adjustment to get them to work properly.

Again, this would be a last resort if you were dead in the water away from home but I’ve read a few instances where people have made this work so there is some truth to what I said. You could also disable the injector and adjust for the lack of fuel.

Again, I found this part by reading the Holley forums and saved the info but have not used it myself.

Bosch 210, Genuine Bosch 2200 cc/min (210 lb/hr) High Impedance Injectors (Alcohol Compatible)
Static Flow Rate @ 101.5 PSI (700 kPa) with Gas: 3350 cc/min = 320 lb/hr

 

[themechanic]

I truly regret the $2800 I spent on my El Camino daily driver switching from a perfectly good carburetor to Sniper Stealth EFI. Included in that was $700 for a dyno tune. Rebuilt 350 with HEI ignition. Started, idled better with the carb and electric choke. I returned twice for troubleshooting and retuning but still like the carb better. I gave up on the shop tuning and just educated myself enough to swap the dyno tune for the initial tune from Holley with a re-flash of the ECU. Starts fine after the initial boot and prime, unlike the carb or factory EFI with no waiting. No gains in fuel mileage or horsepower.

Injectors are very loud. Sound like a lifter not pumping up. The fuel pump supplied by Holley is very loud vane style. I spent another $90 on a much, much quiter Deatschwerks pump with a better design; made in Oklahoma, USA.

Still idles poorly. I could literally balances a nickel on its side on top the air cleaner with the carb. With EFI, its impossible; idles like I pulled a plug wire off one cylinder. Injectors are noisy as heck.

Off idle acceleration with the carb was easy to modulate. Not so with EFI. You go from idle to quarter throttle; not good for slick roads. Holley sells a progressive linkage for the Sniper that doesn't work on the Stealth version. Lots of complaints about this problem. Why not fix the problem at the factory for future sales?

That's my story. My Mopars will have carbs. The Chevy will, too, when the EFI lets me down.



I agree with the comments about factory EFI vs aftermarket EFI conversion kits. Auto makers have much higher standards when they award contracts for parts. Not so much in aftermarket parts manufacturers. So, nobody should expect a flawless experience with EFI conversion that will last the life if the car.

I agree with the cost vs benefits analysis by RC and others. Cars not driven much don't merit spending the $2000 for throttle body EFI conversion. Save it for tires, better fuel, etc.

 

[joe smith]

Whats interesting to me is I remember reading 20 or so years ago, on how NOBODY will be putting any money towards new carbs as FI will take over and that NEW carburetors will NOT be available shortly......
Go to Summit and look at the 1000 carbs you can buy...

 

[rmchrgr]

I truly regret the $2800 I spent on my El Camino daily driver switching from a perfectly good carburetor to Sniper Stealth EFI.

Have you tried posting on the Holley forums? If you do be prepared to upload a config file and data log showing what the car does when driving. It’s not hard but that’s the way you’ll get help quickest.

That said, do you have the Holley software? If yes, have you built your own ignition and fuel tables? That’s where the tune lies a d how you make it work like you want it to. Using the handheld with a generic tune is borderline useless.

The software is free but you’d need a cable to connect to the ECU while in the car. There’s plenty of videos on how to create timing and fuel tables. It was confusing for me at first glance but now it’s second nature. It really helped me understand how it all works. It’s really the same procedure as tuning a carb, just slightly different terminology and it’s done through software.

 

[Cranky]

I've had several Dakotas starting with an 87 3.9 (carb but electrical), a 90, a 92, and have a 95 and a 96 now. The 87 gave the best gas mileage of them all. Never could get a good read on the 90 because the wife was driving it too and she never knew what driving for economy was. The 92 was a 5.2 with 3.90 gears and ran pretty good and would get 15 in town with brisk driving. The 87 would get 17-18 in town with brisk driving and 22-23 on the highway. None of the V6 magnums would do more than 16 in town and if ya drive it somewhat briskly, the 96 will give you 12 mpg. Would sure like to stick in a 4.30 gear in one of them. Stuck really short tires on the back of the 95 once and it woke up! IIRC, they were 23" tall and well, it' looked dumb with them but it was just a test.

My main complaint on EFI is that they are not consistent at the track. My 92 sure wasn't. I see just about everyone running EFI at the track have laptops and weather stations and who knows what else. I'm no carb guru but know how to make a car with one consistent....even if the weather changes, my cars ran the number. Nothing like going to the track not having to tune the dang thing between every round and 'hope' it runs the number.