A little different twist ... has anyone went to EFI and regretted it?

[tonysrt]

The other problem with the aftermarket EFI is there is no real world testing. An engine in a perfect environment runs day after day so the unit is given the seal of approval. We put that unit on our engine and maybe run it once a week maybe not for a month and stop and go in traffic. Then summer heat of 90* or more plus the heat from under the hood and now we have the real world. These Companies rush these units on the market and we do the real world testing and find out the short comings of these units. Perfect example was Mopars with the timing chain issues with the MSD and variable cam timing because it worked good under the perfect conditions but not the real world. And don't forget they all tout Learning ability on the aftermarket EFI as you drive.

 

[73HEMI_RR_GTX]

The new vehicles were built with fuel injection to meet emission standards, not for power or reliability. The latter became true through extensive development.

Performance engines went to fuel injection for power improvements over carburetors. EFI was an improvement over FI.

 

[rmchrgr]

There's a small group of 'car guys' in my immediate area that sometimes meet informally at a nearby gas station. One of my neighbors is a friend and rents out a bay there to work on his Pontiac projects. If I see him working I stop by to chat if I can.

One day last fall I was in my Coronet and pulled in to see what he was up to. He just happened to be helping another neighbor with his big block 65 Impala. It was tired and needed work. I talked with the owner for a bit who I'd never met before. He asked me a few questions about my car and about the EFI. Yada yada, nice to meet you dude, see you at the Burger King cruise or whatever.

Next thing you know, the guy goes and buys a Sniper setup and is calling me for help. I don't know the guy real well, just met him once or twice in passing at the gas station, but there I am up in his garage helping him out. The wiring is a mess. It was original and never cared for. Things were spliced into it all over the place and for whatever reason the battery was in the trunk. The alternator charge wire was literally hanging on by two strands of wire.

I told the guy straight up he shouldn't even attempt to get the Sniper running until he cleaned up the wiring. I said it would probably run on some level but would never be optimal and that he was going to have endless problems with it until he straightened out the engine harness.

He was also nervous about trying to start the car, like it would blow up or something. He kept going on and on about how he wasn't sure if this or that was right. I wasn't critical of the things he did but let's say it wasn't the most sanitary install. He did it though.

At one point I ended up giving him an entire roll of 12 gauge wire and an air cleaner base that cleared the throttle body. A couple days later he put the battery back up front, re-did some of the wiring and tried to start it. It would crank but wouldn't fire. I went up to look at it and started going over the basic stuff. Fuel-check, spark, nope. OK, let's look at the wiring harness. He had tucked the ignition trigger and signal wires away and taped them together with some other unused wire. Not sure why but he did that because the instructions plainly say they need to be hooked up. And wouldn't you know it, before I got there he was ready to rip the thing out and give up.

I told him he'd definitely need the red wire because that's the signal to turn the ECU on though I wasn't exactly sure about the white one because I didn't remember what I had done with it on my own install. I had the idea it was a tach/points output and not necessary but to his credit he did his own research and found a video that told him the white wire was in fact necessary. I said I wasn't sure but it wouldn't hurt to try it.

He hooked the two wires up and what do you know, it fired instantly and actually sounded OK from what I could see in the quick video he sent to me. That was in January and I have not heard from the guy since then. I have a feeling he might be calling me when it gets warm to help tune the thing. Or maybe not. I felt bad not being able to give him a straight answer about the one wire but he didn't give up and figured it out on his own.

My point is his situation sounds like the typical EFI conversion scenario. The guy chose to go EFI because he was tired of fiddling with the car to get it to run consistently like he wanted. Clearly the wiring was part of the reason the car wouldn't run right but ultimately he did his own digging and concluded it was the right choice. I never tried to convince him of anything before he went and bought the parts because I hadn't even spoken to him until he called me asking for help.

And like a lot of people, he was also afraid of the software. When I started asking him about his "config file" he looked at me like I had two heads. He kept saying he was "not a computer guy" like it was some sort of fault. I'm not a "computer guy" either but if I need to figure something out, I'm not afraid of it. It's part of normal life now, you either figure it out or get left behind.

Moral of the story is to do your research, don't take the advertising literally, check your own work and make sure the car is ready before you even start, don't throw in the towel and bad mouth the product on the internet when it's not perfect, ask questions, be prepared to jump through some hoops when you have to work out the kinks and don't be afraid of software driven parts.

 

[mpgmike]

My question to the OP is, "What do you want EFI to do that you aren't getting with a carb?" In other words, define WHY you think EFI is a good move.

 

[themechanic]

From the title it appears he's surveying those of us who are dissatisfied with the carb to EFI swap.

 

[Tman100]

Todays EFI technology gets a small block V8 to put out over 400hp and 20mpg and last 200,000 miles. And you don’t have to do a tune up every year.

I’d challenge take the same engine and do nothing else but run a carb Instead of fuel injection. Same timing etc…. It Will make the same power, same fuel mileage if tuned perfectly but yes the carb will likely need to be cleaned. However….have you ever had to change or clean an idle air motor? Replace a MAP sensor? Replace a Throttle position sensor? Replace or clean a Mass air flow sensor? Replace an Oxygen sensor or run some injector cleaner or have injectors serviced?
All I saying is pick your poison. EFI systems are not without needing service either. Weather you choose EFI or to run a carb if your going to use it at some point it will need some sort of maintenance. The only machinery that does not need to be fixed at some point is the one that is never used. Dodge, Chevy, ford, Case IH, john Deere. It all needs to be kept up and at some point it will fail if you use it enough. Not to say it will leave you on the side of the road but somewhere sometime something will start to cause an issue.

 

[4406bbl]

No, never regretted the switch. I did my first one in 1995 with a thermoquad to projection, it is still running 117,000 miles later, with 3 throttle position sensors, one my fault washing the engine, the others pretty sure the forward and backing of snowplowing is the main cause, the sensors wear and it gets erratic pedal response, but does not quit, one fuel pump failed right away, black holley pumps were junk, switched to the bigger walbro pump. It runs in -20 pushing snow into 6 ft piles dead cold or pulling a trailer at +100. A lot of people failed with these systems, all I did was all new feed and return lines, pump mounted lower than the tank, away from the exhaust to keep it cool, a good filter before and after the pump, and an alternator that provides 100 amps at idle 14 volts and never drops and starves the system for voltage. It was the best thing I ever did to the truck and every 5000 miles the oil is still clean, so pretty sure the engine will never wear out, I might blow it up but the coloration of the oil was a surprise. Maybe I was lucky but I really believe the charging system and full voltage always is the big deal. 14 mpg at 6700pounds, extended cab 4x4, 35" tires, towing a trailer with a 3600 pound e-body with the air on. The thermoquad could only dream of this, just a 318 with 1992 magnum big exhaust, slightly ported heads, performer intake, polished chambers, bronze guides, stock rerung shortblock, and a new 360 2bbl cam, all junk I had laying in the shop. I figured it would last 5 years, so it owes me nothing. I did have to replace all the steel fuel lines again as the salt brine ate them up. The other good thing is I bought several so called failed setups at swap meets for 50 bucks, so I have plenty of spare parts. I have even run it completely out of fuel, because the gas gauge quit 15 years ago, no problems to the pump. Almost forgot the relays supplied in these kits suck, I switched to mopar factory 30 amp relays and pigtails and never had a failure after that.

 

[4mulas]

Todays EFI technology gets a small block V8 to put out over 400hp and 20mpg and last 200,000 miles. And you don’t have to do a tune up every year.

Yes, but that’s not yesterdays throttle body which is what todays sniper and fitech is.Most the EFI solutions are kid of antiquated technology, most akin to the 1985 gm Tbi’s. I was strongly considering trying a sniper etc… but at the end of the day I didn’t feel the 3 grand or so was worth it, after reading about programming difficulties, potential rfi issue, sourcing lack of locations for temp sensors etc….When the come up with a direct injection type, dis technology I’ll giver er a go..

 

[Garceau]

My question to the OP is, "What do you want EFI to do that you aren't getting with a carb?" In other words, define WHY you think EFI is a good move.

I am not asking if its a good move - I am curious about those that have had issues, there are a lot of threads on the swap across the boards. There are a few posts here saying why its not a great choice, not the first choice, and should just stay with a carb - but what I am looking for is exactly why one feels that way or another?

What am I looking for ? Having come out of the drag race field, running mechanical alky injection since the early 2000s - I now have more of a street cruiser (505 inches of cruiser) and I want something that will start up in EVERY condition. Not have issues in traffic, not have issues at a hot slow cruise. Most importantly when I get the opportunity for new heads on this set up and wake it up considerably I really dont want to drop another 800 plus bucks on a carb.

I am not afraid to be a little different - I am not afraid to tinker.

I am on the fence - drop the 800 bucks on a newer updated carb (yes I know I can go cheaper) or drop the 2500-3k on a fuel injection system that can grow somewhat with the car. Notice I said system, as it would take a new fuel tank and most likely if I went the Holley route I would go with the ignition system. Now there is an opportunity to recuperate some of the money by selling off my MSD Billet Dizzy, MSD 6al, and current QFT carb....

To be honest I have waivered back and forth on my thoughts on this subject for a bit. My brother has the abilities to assist with a tune, he has the Terminator system in my nephews car and has assisted with EFI University....however he is in San Antonio - I am in Wisconsin.

Keep the debate going, but if anyone has real world issues - that is what I am interested in.

 

[WileERobby]

Sorry but none of that makes any sense.
The amount of miles you drive your car is irrelevant to what kind of fuel mixer is on the engine.

If anything doesn't make sense, this comment doesn't. RC is absolutely correct. Why should I spend Thousands $$$, on a vehicle used very, very sparingly ? Dollars per mile. Give me a reason I should spend $$$ on a EFI conversion on a 318-2v Cordoba that runs like a top and sees very little miles.

 

[Curiousyellow71]

I would suggest starting with a in tank pump and regular up front with the 1/2" pressure and return lines. Get a regulator that you can run either a carb or fuel injection. The system works very well getting rid of a lot of the carb issues from gas evaporating and if the day comes you are ready to do fuel injection.
What I've described is what we have done. But after driving it with a carb..I am very happy with it. The only issue driving is we have a race holley w no choke Cold starting isn't great. But as far as how the car runs and dependability...it is very good and also very simple. No plans to add fuel injection.

 

[451Mopar]

I almost regretted going to EFI. When I first installed the unit it needed to be tuned adjusted, and the user manuals are pretty bad about how to tune.
After reading some EFI books that helped understand how the units function, and finding a few youTube videos that explained the quirks with the software, I finally got it running good. Then had some quality issues with the in-tank fuel pump setups. The Spectra EFI Tank had the pump power terminal spun to the side and was shorted inside the tank sender. Just repositioning the terminal fixed that, after already having the tank installed, and blowing the pump fuse.
On the HyperFuel in-tank retrofit kit, the fuel line that connects the pump outlet to the top bulkhead fitting I believe was not rated for in-tank use, and swelled up and came loose resulting in loss of fuel pressure. Replaced hose with one rated for in-tank use, and no problems since then.

I mentioned in another post, that there is a steep learning curve to EFI. Carburators are more forgiving if you have a weak fuel system, exhaust leaks, intake leaks, and such. The EFI requires a good fuel system, and it will have issues if there are uncontrolled intake leaks, exhaust leaks, and mis-firing ignition. Seems some sniper owners complain of RFI problems? Resistor spark plugs and good non-solid plug wires should be used.
On the four different EFI setups I have done, Sniper, Fitech, Edelbrock, and FAST, I have had no RFI problems?

 

[rmchrgr]

If anything doesn't make sense, this comment doesn't. RC is absolutely correct. Why should I spend Thousands $$$, on a vehicle used very, very sparingly ? Dollars per mile. Give me a reason I should spend $$$ on a EFI conversion on a 318-2v Cordoba that runs like a top and sees very little miles.

I won't because here's no rational justification for any of this stuff. The argument was a non-sequitur because choosing to convert a car to EFI has nothing to do with how many miles a year the car gets driven. What do you say to the guys that have 6-71 blowers sticking out of the hood and 14x32 tires in the back? Should they have left the perfectly-running factory 2bbl on it because they only putt it around every so often?

If you want to keep your car the way it came from the factory that's OK by me. There's people in the hobby that modify their cars and people that don't. Even if you only drove it out of the garage and back in once a year there's no reason not to have fuel injection on it or even a Twin-Turbo hemi.

I would never shove EFI down anyone's throat like has been suggested. I would never shove anything down anyone's throat. I just don't like to see some people poo-poo others for making their own choices whether they're rational, justified or cost effective. There seems to be a condescending and dismissive tone with some of these very pat answers and in my opinion, not much in the way of substance or even common discourse to back them up.

Modifying my cars makes me happy. I don't spend my disposable income on too many other things so it's not like I'm spreading myself thin. I'm also not one to adorn it with all kinds of flashy gee-gaws but if something is out there that could increase the fun factor when I'm behind the wheel then I'm all for it. Most people don't even realize I have EFI on the car until I tell them. I also drive the thing as much as practicality allows and the fuel injection has made it that much more interesting. I really don't see a point in owning one of these cars just to have it sit in the garage.

I didn't think the cost of EFI was the point here anyway. The O.P. seems to be interested in making the switch and was trying to get a general consensus about how well these systems work. I suppose you could interpret his line of questioning from a cost/value standpoint but I didn't see it that way.

The claims of an EFI conversion costing "thousands" (as has been alluded to here a few times) are exaggerated. If you so chose, you could get a Sniper EFI "Master kit" from Holley for just under $1,500. While it's not pocket change, in the scheme of things it's not an outrageous expense. Sure, it can add up quick when you start getting into custom parts but over all, it's fairly reasonable for what it is.

 

[mpgmike]

Garceau, it sounds like you have some knowledgeable connections, folks who have been there and done it. In your shoes, my first step would be to have conversation with one or more of them. Explain your situation and your expectations. Listen to their advice, and follow up with their suggested reading. I'm getting the impression you really want to convert to EFI, but not if it turns into a nightmare. As suggested earlier, problems are caused by issues; fix the issues and the problems go away.

If I were one of your trusted connections (no, I'm just some faceless person on an internet forum), I would suggest starting with a stand-alone controller with the I/O's and flexibility to cover any foreseeable needs. It sounds like your set-up is far from typical. The top-of-the-line controller is MOTEC, but they are expensive! Next, break out the calculators and size the fuel lines, pump(s), injectors, throttle body, and so forth. With a custom-tailored EFI, another choice is brand new parts or junk yard jewels. The planning stage is part of the "fun", but only with expert guidance. (Otherwise it's scary, as you second-guess everything.)

You may find data logging and tuning something enjoyable. Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[super-bee_ski]

My question to the OP is, "What do you want EFI to do that you aren't getting with a carb?" In other words, define WHY you think EFI is a good move.

Well
In my opinion, being in California with our "CA Gasoline" we are told that the gas will go bad after 2 to 3 months...so much Ethanol and other additives, so a Closed Fuel Injection system prevents this gas from deteriorating and breaking down.
You do not have this issue in NJ and many other States
Furthermore:
I come for the School of "It's your car, do as you please"
mpg mike, this is not targeting you and your post at all...
Just some clarification.
some of the new EFI stuff...looks OEM with Air Cleaner on
I'm a Fan of "Roller Rockers", "EFI" etc....

BTW: We here in California have stuff like Lucas Ethanol treatments etc to help counteract the negative effects of Oxygenated Gasoline.
Hoping this shed light on why some would go this path.

 

[tonysrt]

You guys seem to believe that all the problems are installation issues. But when the ECU goes bad maybe its the makers fault and you just can't foresee that.

 

[Dennis H]

TBI is an electronic carb. Only sequential multi port like modern cars is worth the grief.
It’s not the EFI, it’s the plumbing and fuel. Everything behind the firewall is a crapshoot pain in the ***.

 

[rmchrgr]

You guys seem to believe that all the problems are installation issues.

Because they are.

 

[mpgmike]

As with the case of the failed ECU, they could also be inadequate component quality. Either way, when properly engineered and installed...

OEM quality is pretty reliable.

 

[WileERobby]

I won't because here's no rational justification for any of this stuff. The argument was a non-sequitur because choosing to convert a car to EFI has nothing to do with how many miles a year the car gets driven. What do you say to the guys that have 6-71 blowers sticking out of the hood and 14x32 tires in the back? Should they have left the perfectly-running factory 2bbl on it because they only putt it around every so often?
I didn't think the cost of EFI was the point here anyway.

Initially, but YOU made a retort about a financial feasibility point made by RC. Maybe to you it has nothing to do with how many miles a car gets driven; to others, it is.