B Bodies and Road Courses - My Super Bee Setup

[sam dupont]

any recommendation for 200 TW tires to fit a 15-inch wheel? What are you using?

You can buy used race rubber on line. Still sticky, but much cheaper. If you have the cash, buy new race rubber, it's really sticky

 

[Rusty knuckles]

any recommendation for 200 TW tires to fit a 15-inch wheel? What are you using?

I'm not actually yet. I have some 15" rims and I'll probably swap them on and off as needed. Im using tire rack and just searching 15" tires that i can make work. Budget hasn't allowed me to buy yet. I'm currently running on 14" magnum 500 style rims with Cooper cobras. I think the main thing people need to realize is that you're going out to have fun. You aren't going to set the fast time at all. Even in the vintage classes where you match up against other vintage cars you will still get beat, especially in a B body, unless they're a poor driver. But you'll have a blast and my goal is always to get the best out of my car that day. When I clock 2 or 3 runs within a tenth of each other and don't feel I could have changed a single corner to have been better I feel successful.

I think people get too hung up on having the best stuff and being the fastest. You should be going to have a good time. You're not gonna embarrass yourself unless you putz around like an old lady or you think you're max verstappen and take out a bunch of cones. The last autocross I went to, the fast time of the day was 54.5 sec set by a Porsche Cayman. My best time was 67.1. That's a huge difference sure but there's a huge difference between that new Porsche and my 50 year old worn out junk.

 

[ckessel]

I'm curious about wanting to use offset shackles. Are you going to offset the front spring hangers too? Just doing the offset shackles will cause some binding to the spring eyes causing bushing issues or worse. If you are wanting to improve the handling of the car, for sure go after suspension upgrades. T-bars, springs, sway bars, shocks. If you want to go further there are structure upgrades[ torque boxes, frame connectors, lower tie bar, front apron braces, lower control arm reinforcements] that are simple to do. At this point, you may want to get the car scaled[ total, front, back, corners] which will help you choose bar and spring rates. Of course you don't have to but the more info you are armed with, the better choices you can make. Of course frame connectors may require you to remove the interior for welding if you go that type. You could possibly use 2x2 .120 square weld in to avoid interior fun. Although if you remove the interior, may be a good time for carpet replacement, rust prevention paint on the floor etc. Going further like I'm going, you could work on the k-frame to stiffen it up/go weld in 2x4 .120 rectangle tube on the SFC's and possibly do like I did and sleeve them into the existing rails for even more connection[ but requires cutting up the floor]. How far do you want to go and what are your skill levels? There are two publications you could use to give you some ideas. The one off of Amazon is out of print but you may be able to hunt one down. Old but very viable. The one in the picture can be had from arengineering.com
Mopar Suspensions: Complete Guide for Building Mopar Suspensions for Street, Autocross, and Road Racing

 

[sam dupont]

Here's a in car video using the trackaddict app. Sorry for the talking in the video.

Your tires are protesting at 7:45 and the skid marks on the road say many before you found the limit of their traction.

 

[sdconcepts]

looking for some of these road course type events in the midwest, especially michigan, who puts these on?

 

[old guys rule]

You can buy used race rubber on line. Still sticky, but much cheaper. If you have the cash, buy new race rubber, it's really sticky

I would think a 200 tread wear wouldn't last very long on the street. Probably too expensive for me.

 

[old guys rule]

I'm not actually yet. I have some 15" rims and I'll probably swap them on and off as needed. Im using tire rack and just searching 15" tires that i can make work. Budget hasn't allowed me to buy yet. I'm currently running on 14" magnum 500 style rims with Cooper cobras. I think the main thing people need to realize is that you're going out to have fun. You aren't going to set the fast time at all. Even in the vintage classes where you match up against other vintage cars you will still get beat, especially in a B body, unless they're a poor driver. But you'll have a blast and my goal is always to get the best out of my car that day. When I clock 2 or 3 runs within a tenth of each other and don't feel I could have changed a single corner to have been better I feel successful.

I think people get too hung up on having the best stuff and being the fastest. You should be going to have a good time. You're not gonna embarrass yourself unless you putz around like an old lady or you think you're max verstappen and take out a bunch of cones. The last autocross I went to, the fast time of the day was 54.5 sec set by a Porsche Cayman. My best time was 67.1. That's a huge difference sure but there's a huge difference between that new Porsche and my 50 year old worn out junk.

I agree, the only reason I want to Auto cross it is just for the fun. The only numbers that would concern me would be comparing them to the last time.

 

[Kern Dog]

I would think a 200 tread wear wouldn't last very long on the street. Probably too expensive for me.

Yeah but HoooOOOOOlee crap do they stick to the road!
I have 200 TW tires on this car:

My first set of tires for this car "aged out" at 70 % tread up front and 50% tread out back. I had them right at ten years.
I replaced them in 2014 and am ready to replace them again this year but now they are worn out. The car has never handled better than it does now.

I feel like this guy.....

 

[ckessel]

I agree, the only reason I want to Auto cross it is just for the fun. The only numbers that would concern me would be comparing them to the last time.

You could start with the easy stuff and advance from there. Grippy tires, sway bars and some Bilsteins. If the front joints, bushings etc are questionable you'll want to address those first.

 

[1 Wild R/T]

Yeah but HoooOOOOOlee crap do they stick to the road!
I have 200 TW tires on this car:

My first set of tires for this car "aged out" at 70 % tread up front and 50% tread out back. I had them right at ten years.
I replaced them in 2014 and am ready to replace them again this year but now they are worn out. The car has never handled better than it does now.

I feel like this guy.....

And that is why I keep telling people on a toy you can be a bit more aggressive with your alignment & tire selection.... It's not like your gonna wear the tires out in a year on the street...

Track is different, you can push harder without getting arrested... But if your hitting the track you expect to need to budget for frequent tire changes..

 

[Superbeemike]

looking for some of these road course type events in the midwest, especially michigan, who puts these on?

This site seems to have the most events listed and it’s nationwide

Motorsportreg

 

[Superbeemike]

I have a 63 Dodge b-body I'm looking for ways to make it handle better. It's not a race car just Street. Was wondering if it would be practical to use offset shackles on the rear eyes of the leaf springs. Any other advice for handling I would really appreciate. Thanks in advance, Dave

Upgrade springs, add sway bars front and rear, and maybe upgrade tires. Get a full alignment and you’ll be set. Anything beyond that gets expensive and possibly makes it less streetable. Follow my recipe at the beginning of the post.

 

[Superbeemike]

Your tires are protesting at 7:45 and the skid marks on the road say many before you found the limit of their traction.

Better tires are the next step for me. I just don’t want to give up that old school stock car look and running race tires on the street are questionable

 

[sam dupont]

Want to be careful if you get caught in the rain with race rubber. I drove my DOT Yokohama's in 6 inches of snow once and they gripped fine. They were new, had a 1/2 " of tread and the snow was sticky. When I went in to Safeway to get beer and chips, I could see I was plowing snow with the under carriage

 

[j-c-c-62]

For the OP, I not true believer in anyone starting out with a rear swaybar. I haven't seen anywhere in this thread where you tested your set-up with the rear SB links disconnected for an A/B comparison test, I would highly suggest it and suspect you would find it informative. Three things stand out for all the readers here IMO, big TB's. 1.1" is the min that should be considered, 1.03" is a waste of time and money on the track but still an improvement over stock, and one the owner/driver will quickly regret, -1.0deg camber is also a min, and lastly tires are everything and above all else in handling.

 

[Superbeemike]

For the OP, I not true believer in anyone starting out with a rear swaybar. I haven't seen anywhere in this thread where you tested your set-up with the rear SB links disconnected for an A/B comparison test, I would highly suggest it and suspect you would find it informative. Three things stand out for all the readers here IMO, big TB's. 1.1" is the min that should be considered, 1.03" is a waste of time and money on the track but still an improvement over stock, and one the owner/driver will quickly regret, -1.0deg camber is also a min, and lastly tires are everything and above all else in handling.

Curious on why you think I should disconnect the rear sway bar?

I started off with one for a couple reasons. First, the factory handling packages in T/A, AAR, and Police cars had them. Second is most aftermarket kits have them as well. I would expect those kits to have a little R&D behind them and most seem to work well with what research I did.

Honestly I’m pretty happy with my setup as is.

 

[j-c-c-62]

Curious on why you think I should disconnect the rear sway bar?

I started off with one for a couple reasons. First, the factory handling packages in T/A, AAR, and Police cars had them. Second is most aftermarket kits have them as well. I would expect those kits to have a little R&D behind them and most seem to work well with what research I did.

Honestly I’m pretty happy with my setup as is.

Since you asked:
1. In almost every case a sway bar lowers that axle's total lateral grip. We can explore that aspect in greater detail if requested. That can be still useful because a cars balance and handling perception can be improved.
2. That means it's a potential useful tuning tool
3. I would have suggested to set the car up first without, and add later so a better comparison could be made. Understand I'm now only suggesting the reverse as a test. Since you have apparently made numerous changes since the car was first tracked, it is very possible the rear bar is now useful and best kept.
4. I would not personally give a lot of weight to TA or AAR OEM set-ups, as they were more overall marketing exercises in so many ways. I am big fan of the racing motto: "Everything effects everything else", and those cars are light years different IMO in set-up and application compared to yours.
5. Lastly IMO, you have made many wise choices in your sorting out and upgrades that is rather hard to second guess, except for this one minor item. That is a well earned compliment.
6. My original comment was more to help inform those on a similar path, but who are just starting out. Same applies to the importance of tires in the big picture.
7. My first trigger here was the single pic posted of exit corner oversteer (?), which looks like fun and is not overly indicative, but begged the question.
7. Maybe one day if I am lucky, both our cars will sharing the track on a track day, and if yours is in my mirror, the question will be, are you getting smaller, or bigger.

 

[Kern Dog]

If you are the same JCC from Moparts, I’d take his words with a grain of salt. That dude loves to criticize every mod people do. He railed against 11/16” tie rods in the A-B-E cars, the lower control arm reinforcements, even had issues with frame connectors and torque boxes together.
Either scroll past his words or put him on IGNORE.
He comes across like a Californian that moves to your state and tries to change it to meet his standards.

 

[j-c-c-62]

If you are the same JCC from Moparts, I’d take his words with a grain of salt. That dude loves to criticize every mod people do. He railed against 11/16” tie rods in the A-B-E cars, the lower control arm reinforcements, even had issues with frame connectors and torque boxes together.
Either scroll past his words or put him on IGNORE.

That is your contribution on the topic?
Still a tad sore I see?

Edit Just for amusement this is a somewhat recent 11/16" Tr thread, one of many over the years, it paints a pretty accurate picture of the different opinions and their reasonings in some cases.
11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits?
The discussion of using both FC and torque boxes might best quickly be described using with this analogy, using a belt and suspenders to hold one's pants up, one does a pretty good job all by itself, using both just to hold up your pants just takes longer to get dressed and add weight. That thread is long ago, but you get the drift.
This is one of many, from 6 years ago; B-body Stiffening Q
The LCA reinforcements issue were touched on here 8 years ago:
anyone ever lighten lower control arms?

This is where I must have peed in someone's cereal almost 12? years ago;
What suspension mods are in YOUR B body?

I don't hesitate to disagree and give reasons on an open forum, and some people have a hard time accepting that apparently.

 

[Kern Dog]

Take my advice, guys.