B Bodies and Road Courses - My Super Bee Setup

[j-c-c-62]

Ancient Knight from The Holy Grail: "Choose Wisely"

 

[j-c-c-62]

Since everybody needs salt, let me throw this salt out there for all that have maybe chosen wisely regarding their sway bars.
Ponder this, assume you have a swaybar on any axle. Your car is sitting at rest, imagine you are making a high G turn. That would mean weight transfers to the outside wheel.
So that outside wheel moves upward relative to the chassis, or more correctly the chassis on that side moves closer lower to the wheel.
Now imagine say the outside TB link was only for illustration sake, was not connected to the outside tire,
Instead you walk over and grab the end of the outside TB and lift real hard, just like wheel is doing if the TB was connected in a high g turn.
Now what you have to understand is, what does that TB twist do to the weight on the inside tire?
Answer; it lifts/or lowers the weight on the inside tire.
It also increases the load on the outside tire by using some of the inside tires spring rate and transfers it to the outside tire during a high G maneuver as it attempts to lift the inside tire.
The outside tire gets a greater load, but overall axle grip decreases, because the tires are no longer equally loaded (The Holy Grail), the grip increase is not a 1 to 1 ratio with the weight increase.
The SB Axle loses some grip, and the car's balance changes, sometimes better, sometimes worse, often due to driver preference.
Might want to reread this, it is a concept many are not clear on.

There are other actions going on here, but the above is IMO the most often one misunderstood.

 

[sam dupont]

Since everybody needs salt, let me throw this salt out there for all that have maybe chosen wisely regarding their sway bars.
Ponder this, assume you have a swaybar on any axle. Your car is sitting at rest, imagine you are making a high G turn. That would mean weight transfers to the outside wheel.
So that outside wheel moves upward relative to the chassis, or more correctly the chassis on that side moves closer lower to the wheel.
Now imagine say the outside TB link was only for illustration sake, was not connected to the outside tire,
Instead you walk over and grab the end of the outside TB and lift real hard, just like wheel is doing if the TB was connected in a high g turn.
Now what you have to understand is, what does that TB twist do to the weight on the inside tire?
Answer; it lifts/or lowers the weight on the inside tire.
It also increases the load on the outside tire by using some of the inside tires spring rate and transfers it to the outside tire during a high G maneuver as it attempts to lift the inside tire.
The outside tire gets a greater load, but overall axle grip decreases, because the tires are no longer equally loaded (The Holy Grail), the grip increase is not a 1 to 1 ratio with the weight increase.
The SB Axle loses some grip, and the car's balance changes, sometimes better, sometimes worse, often due to driver preference.
Might want to reread this, it is a concept many are not clear on.

There are other actions going on here, but the above is IMO the most often one misunderstood.

what is a TB?

 

[1 Wild R/T]

what is a TB?

Considering the subject matter it's probably not a titty bar.... Or a taco bar.....Not even a tequila bar Perhaps a torsion bar.....

 

[sam dupont]

I was reading with great intent, wanting to learn, but could not click on what TB meant. When we abbreviate, it is good writing to post it in full first, then abbreviate from then on.

 

[sam dupont]

When I built my first autocrosser I installed a bigger factory front Torsion Bar from a later version of my car, but the rears available had mixed reviews and were said to give less warning before coming around in a corner. So I left it factory original. What helped my cornering the most of any mods it did was installing the roll cage which stiffened the car, affectionately known as a Flexible Flyer in England.

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

I've only tracked my 68 B body at low to moderate speeds at Willow Springs, but I noticed an improvement in flat cornering response after I installed a frame hung Firm Feel rear sway bar. I had also heard with leaf springs it was pointless, but I like the results. I also like the way it drives on the street with the rear bar. Perhaps if I put 18" wheels and tires and tracked my car hard I may change my opinion?

 

[Kern Dog]

No, you won't. I'd let you try out mine on your car if they would fit without rubbing.
The rear bar works for my car too. I have a 3/4" bar from an '82 Imperial. It is like the Firm Feel design, frame mounted. I had a 7/8" Addco bar and with that, the car did have a slight OVERsteer tendency but that was due not only to the size but the short lever arms it had. The shorter the lever arms, the more effective the bar is because the car has less mechanical leverage against the center mass of the bar. Longer lever arms reduce the effectiveness of the bar. If you need an example, think of the difference between the front sway bars on a 66-69 B body and a 70-72. The early bar mounted outside the K member and had longer arms. The later version was mounted within the K member and had shorter arms but was a smaller diameter while maintaining a similar roll rate.
I drove my car with no rear bar and while it cornered fine, it had more body roll too. The 3/4" rear bar reduced the body roll but did not send the car into an oversteer condition at street speeds. I have not driven it on the track but I have pushed it on the street and it is as neutral as any car that I've driven. Dwayne drove the car but didn't push it anywhere near as hard as I do. It has no bad habits yet it has many components that SOME new members here advise against as being redundant or dead weight.
For example...Boxed lower control arms are like frame connectors where they reduce flex and let the torsion bars work without lost motion. With the LCAs, the reduced flex from having gusseted the underside allows the sway bar to not lose effectiveness to a twisted LCA.

 

[1 Wild R/T]

The point is with leaf springs, especially with Mopar leaf springs with their short front segment the rear tends to stay fairly flat and a rear bar can induce oversteer... Another way of describing oversteer is it tends to make the car tail happy... Tail happy can be fun if your paying attention but it can bite you if your not.... Back when every car was set up to understeer like a pig and GM equipped Trans Am & Z28's with rear bars it was pretty common to see guys who thought they were the Bandit get the tail hung out & lose the car... But someone who knew how to use the cars could go pretty fast.....

That said if your running a big front bar on your Mopar a rear bar helps quite a bit.... I run a 1 1/4" front bar and an adjustable rear bar... I keep the adjustments to the lowest setting most of the time... I've pushed it to the highest setting to go out & play but honestly I don't drive that aggressively anymore so back to the low setting...

 

[j-c-c-62]

what is a TB?

Sorry "TB" means torsion bar, and My apologies to everybody, in the current context it was supposed to be "SB" which is a Swaybar, but in reality, it also is indeed also a torsion bar also, just serving a different purpose here.
I am sure everybody is now confused?

My Bad.

 

[Kern Dog]

If your running a big front bar on your Mopar a rear bar helps quite a bit.... I run a 1 1/4" front bar and an adjustable rear bar... I keep the adjustments to the lowest setting most of the time... I've pushed it to the highest setting to go out & play but honestly I don't drive that aggressively anymore so back to the low setting...

I agree. I have a 1.25" hollow QA-1 front bar....

....and 1.15" torsion bars. The car understeers and has more body roll without a rear bar.
There are engineers that are all theory and no practice that stick to the math despite the way the real world actually works.
Don't be THAT guy.

 

[j-c-c-62]

For example...Boxed lower control arms are like frame connectors where they reduce flex and let the torsion bars work without lost motion. With the LCAs, the reduced flex from having gusseted the underside allows the sway bar to not lose effectiveness to a twisted LCA.

Except the LCA's are not flexing in the first place in ANY application by any readers here, and even if they did the flexing would be in series with the TB and only lower the spring a nearly infinitesimal unmeasurable amount, orders of magnitude less than the spring found in a typical 15" air inflated tire. Remember, the LCA it is not solidly mounted, it can only see forces the TB can supply by its chosen diameter, ie it only sees limited static forces in normal road use. If hitting curbs at high speeds and protecting your LCA is your number one priority, you should be adding 1/2" steel or larger gussets.
Offset SB forces from a 1"+ SB are much more likely to twist the LCA longitudinally on its pivot mounting, especially if OEM vs Delrin, and any of the beam bending that could arise is also nearly unmeasurable. This SB LCA gusset "twist benefit" was unveiled years after the original marketed benefit of stiffening the LCA began to become questioned.
I rate the above claim "pants on fire" and mostly a marketing claim for sales.
Nobody in nearly two decades has proven my above contention wrong.

 

[j-c-c-62]

Since everybody needs salt, let me throw this salt out there for all that have maybe chosen wisely regarding their sway bars......................................................................................................

The SB Axle loses some grip, and the car's balance changes, sometimes better, sometimes worse, often due to driver preference.
Might want to reread this, it is a concept many are not clear on.

There are other actions going on here, but the above is IMO the most often one misunderstood.

 

[Some Car Guy]

I put a set of these shackles on my 70 challenger years ago. Really tightened up the car. There might be other place selling these. It was decades back I did this.

B, C, E, F, M & J-Body HD Shackle Kit

I want to end up with these on my GTX and also I have the ball joint sway bar links to put on.

 

[70chall440]

Like many I am following this because it is interesting and the OP has offered some real world opinions and results of using some specific equipment. All this said I figured it was just a matter of time before the theorists to make an appearance providing all manner reasons why this or that doesn't work. Most of the time these "concepts" are in fact factual "if" everything is perfect and in a theoretical environment, however concepts are frequently found to be wanting when applied to the real world. This is because concepts do not account for all of the variables encountered in the real world (tire, grip, driver actions, power levels, mechanical correctness of all components, etc.).

If someone can tell me that they did X and Y resulted when they drove it I am happy to listen but if someone is telling me that "in theory".... well thats all good but they are just words. Something like the issue of the LCA's not benefiting from being gusseted or strengthened is a perfect example because while it is true that if you have excellent LCAs made to spec without any wear or damage they probably do not flex and do operate exactly as intended by the designing engineer. However when you have LCAs that are 40+ years old that have been subjected to all manner of abuse and wear I would offer that they absolutely do benefit from being "rebuilt" and reinforced as it makes an old part definitely capable of operating far beyond what they were intended for. Oh and by the way, the original design never intended for these parts to be subjected to the type of forces modern drive trains and tires can provide today.

Just my $.02

 

[Rennkafer]

All of this ^^ plus saying the LCA's don't deflect when using a larger than stock sway bar is silly. They were designed for a ~3/4" sway bar, using the typical 1 1/4" bar increases the force by several times (like ~8x)

 

[j-c-c-62]

All of this ^^ plus saying the LCA's don't deflect when using a larger than stock sway bar is silly. They were designed for a ~3/4" sway bar, using the typical 1 1/4" bar increases the force by several times (like ~8x)

Well if you are so certain and serious, tell us how much, what direction, and what negative outcome arises you claim from this 5'? long bent 1.25" bar deflecting this LCA that is of such concern?
Only three? possible answers I see, you don't know, you have actual measurements with and without a LCA lower welded gusset, or you are willing to admit you can only make a guess to this question based on blind faith?

 

[Superbeemike]

Since you asked:
1. In almost every case a sway bar lowers that axle's total lateral grip. We can explore that aspect in greater detail if requested. That can be still useful because a cars balance and handling perception can be improved.
2. That means it's a potential useful tuning tool
3. I would have suggested to set the car up first without, and add later so a better comparison could be made. Understand I'm now only suggesting the reverse as a test. Since you have apparently made numerous changes since the car was first tracked, it is very possible the rear bar is now useful and best kept.
4. I would not personally give a lot of weight to TA or AAR OEM set-ups, as they were more overall marketing exercises in so many ways. I am big fan of the racing motto: "Everything effects everything else", and those cars are light years different IMO in set-up and application compared to yours.
5. Lastly IMO, you have made many wise choices in your sorting out and upgrades that is rather hard to second guess, except for this one minor item. That is a well earned compliment.
6. My original comment was more to help inform those on a similar path, but who are just starting out. Same applies to the importance of tires in the big picture.
7. My first trigger here was the single pic posted of exit corner oversteer (?), which looks like fun and is not overly indicative, but begged the question.
7. Maybe one day if I am lucky, both our cars will sharing the track on a track day, and if yours is in my mirror, the question will be, are you getting smaller, or bigger.

I do agree with this and it’s good information to consider if you are trying to balance out your car. I should clarify the photo you referenced where I’m loose off is from me intentionally trying to get it sideways, otherwise my car is tight in turns and will understeer long before the rear gives out. The 295’s in the rear vs 245’s in the front have some responsibility for this as well. Watch the linked videos and you will hear the front tires giving up quickly.

With this, I’m actually going to adjust my rear sway bar to be more aggressive in hopes to loosen the rear of the car up.

 

[sdconcepts]

I do agree with this and it’s good information to consider if you are trying to balance out your car. I should clarify the photo you referenced where I’m loose off is from me intentionally trying to get it sideways, otherwise my car is tight in turns and will understeer long before the rear gives out. The 295’s in the rear vs 245’s in the front have some responsibility for this as well. Watch the linked videos and you will hear the front tires giving up quickly.

With this, I’m actually going to adjust my rear sway bar to be more aggressive in hopes to loosen the rear of the car up.

This is some awesome real world feedback you're providing. cant wait to see how the story progresses.

 

[j-c-c-62]

I do agree with this and it’s good information to consider if you are trying to balance out your car. I should clarify the photo you referenced where I’m loose off is from me intentionally trying to get it sideways, otherwise my car is tight in turns and will understeer long before the rear gives out. The 295’s in the rear vs 245’s in the front have some responsibility for this as well. Watch the linked videos and you will hear the front tires giving up quickly.

With this, I’m actually going to adjust my rear sway bar to be more aggressive in hopes to loosen the rear of the car up.

I was hesitant to draw too much conclusion from one still pic.
I will check out the video later.
I would also suggest two other paths or both for consideration, more/stickier front tire, more power.

If you upgrade your front tires, your front brakes will soon become the next weak link.

It never ends.

The smile that one gets with a car so balanced that the throttle rotates the car, is beyond words. Stay at it