Outboards are capacitive discharge where most automotive are inductive both are electronic but apples and oranges.
Could someone help me understand the difference between upgrading your points to an electronic ignition compared to installing a coil/ignition box
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ynst
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He was on a road trip and the shop that tried to replace his distributor after the vehicle got towed off the highway disturbed the fuel line in the process and it went un-noticed until he was on the highway a day and a half later and flames were coming out from under the hood.
The orange box wires went behind the alternator right next to the fuel line (383) then over the lower right side of the engine.
The distributor had to be replaced because the counterweight springs failed and jammed everything up under the pick-up. Pieces were floating around everywhere under the distributor cap. The bearings were pretty tired as well.
Okay but I don't see the electronic ignition as the cause which seemed to be your indication earlier.
mountain33
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What happened to Bob? Now that you mentioned it. I haven't seen any snarky comments lately. I mean if it's the Bob I'm thinking about.Bob would be stuck on, " WTH is a dizzy??"
ynst
Well-Known Member
The electronic ignition was a direct cause of the failure because EVERYONE believes that they are indestructible. Had these owners performed routine maintenance on them, neither would have had catastrophic failures on the highway.
I've never had a problem with a Kettering distributor that couldn't be remedied on the shoulder and got me on my way.
My 5 Volares and two C-bodies, on the other hand, were always breaking down and I always had to carry spare parts in the back of the wagons or in the trunks so that they could be repaired.
I changed my caps and rotors regularly and always checked the counterweights and bearing slop just like I do with my Kettering distributors.
Both of those failures were due to the owners having believed the fallacy that electronic ignitions are indestructible and when you get some tow truck jockey trying to fix the problem(s), you're bound to be in for a costly bottom line.
Hell, my '72 Dart has a '79 engine in it but I retrofitted the '72 points distributor into it in the early eighties when I installed the newer engine.
My daughter is still driving the car to this day.
I've never had a problem with a Kettering distributor that couldn't be remedied on the shoulder and got me on my way.
My 5 Volares and two C-bodies, on the other hand, were always breaking down and I always had to carry spare parts in the back of the wagons or in the trunks so that they could be repaired.
I changed my caps and rotors regularly and always checked the counterweights and bearing slop just like I do with my Kettering distributors.
Both of those failures were due to the owners having believed the fallacy that electronic ignitions are indestructible and when you get some tow truck jockey trying to fix the problem(s), you're bound to be in for a costly bottom line.
Hell, my '72 Dart has a '79 engine in it but I retrofitted the '72 points distributor into it in the early eighties when I installed the newer engine.
My daughter is still driving the car to this day.
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Bob died a month back.
mountain33
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Oh crap. Thanks for info. Here I figured he got himself thrown out of the site somehow. He was entertaining. If it's the Bob I'm thinking of. I'll actually miss him
Geoff 2
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No one said elec ign is indestructible. It is man made, so it can fail.........
Points ign is not the equal of elec ign. The points rubbing block wears, retarding the ign causing loss of mileage & power. That does not happen with elec ign. For a general purpose car that might get raced occasionally, the GM HEI set up with 0.060" plug gaps is unbeatable.
Points ign is not the equal of elec ign. The points rubbing block wears, retarding the ign causing loss of mileage & power. That does not happen with elec ign. For a general purpose car that might get raced occasionally, the GM HEI set up with 0.060" plug gaps is unbeatable.
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I think the real problem, at least for some makes, isn’t so much points vs electronic but that modern replacement points aren’t very good compared to the original. This is more from reading and seeing videos, if I’m wrong let me know.
@tonyp25
Points ignition works fine but is a little more maintence. A quality set of points will last a few to many years depending on how much you drive your old car. Replacement parts can be poor quality though, especially condensors, ballast resistors and possibly coils.
Mopar Electronic Ignition isn't a bad system but those components don't last forever and the quality of those replacement parts is pretty shaky as well. Control units are the worst nowdays.
A Pertronix conversion is a good conversion alternative. The first level kit is a good points and condenser eliminator. Use their recommended coil and follow the directions as to ballast use or not.
Leave the MSD units for the race cars. It's an un necessary overkill unless you have a real hot rod. Not a bad idea to have an extra unit on hand because the control boxes can and will fail.
The quality of replacement parts nowdays for points or Mopar electronic ignition is a crap shoot. You are better off stocking up with parts frim Halifaxhops. He sells all the good old stock parts.
Points ignition works fine but is a little more maintence. A quality set of points will last a few to many years depending on how much you drive your old car. Replacement parts can be poor quality though, especially condensors, ballast resistors and possibly coils.
Mopar Electronic Ignition isn't a bad system but those components don't last forever and the quality of those replacement parts is pretty shaky as well. Control units are the worst nowdays.
A Pertronix conversion is a good conversion alternative. The first level kit is a good points and condenser eliminator. Use their recommended coil and follow the directions as to ballast use or not.
Leave the MSD units for the race cars. It's an un necessary overkill unless you have a real hot rod. Not a bad idea to have an extra unit on hand because the control boxes can and will fail.
The quality of replacement parts nowdays for points or Mopar electronic ignition is a crap shoot. You are better off stocking up with parts frim Halifaxhops. He sells all the good old stock parts.
I went from a Chrysler style orange ECU in my chargers 383 to an MSD Street fire. Same coil and distributor.
The car started and idled better and immediately began to ping.
I had to retard the timing a little but it was a noticeable improvement.
It's been in there for 11 or 12 years with no problems.
Another benefit is an RPM limiter which is a good feature if you have a manual transmission.
The car started and idled better and immediately began to ping.
I had to retard the timing a little but it was a noticeable improvement.
It's been in there for 11 or 12 years with no problems.
Another benefit is an RPM limiter which is a good feature if you have a manual transmission.
I have all 3 different setups in various vehicles. And I agree on a few “points” mentioned above.
If you’re going to run Mopar electronic ignition, make sure you’re not buying new off the shelf ECU boxes, they’re junk. To change to this system requires some wire splicing, the actually wiring harness for the ECU, and a bonus would be to also change your 69 and earlier voltage regulator to the later style solid state unit. Again, needing the harness.
Points are not a bad setup, easily changed and maintained.
The Pertronix setup I had in my GTX worked flawlessly for the 25 years I owned that car, I highly recommend the setup if you just want to upgrade your current points distributor and leave everything else alone.
MSD is a great setup, but very expensive to buy and replace pets. I have that setup in my plow truck, because it was already in there when I bought it. A new cap and rotor was $88.
According to our fearless ignition leader @HALIFAXHOPS, the points system is the easiest and most efficient ignition system for older cars. I run a Hops points distributor, Firecore wires and champion plugs in Nellas car, and it runs just fine. All distributor parts came from Hops, because he stocks OE parts and old stock stuff, not the crappy over the counter junk you buy now. Now, if you can find the old Accel points, those were great back in the day. Ray rebuilt my old Accel dual point distributor for my Roadrunner, and of course sent me pickup parts for the whole thing. I don’t by ignition pets anywhere else.
If you’re going to run Mopar electronic ignition, make sure you’re not buying new off the shelf ECU boxes, they’re junk. To change to this system requires some wire splicing, the actually wiring harness for the ECU, and a bonus would be to also change your 69 and earlier voltage regulator to the later style solid state unit. Again, needing the harness.
Points are not a bad setup, easily changed and maintained.
The Pertronix setup I had in my GTX worked flawlessly for the 25 years I owned that car, I highly recommend the setup if you just want to upgrade your current points distributor and leave everything else alone.
MSD is a great setup, but very expensive to buy and replace pets. I have that setup in my plow truck, because it was already in there when I bought it. A new cap and rotor was $88.
According to our fearless ignition leader @HALIFAXHOPS, the points system is the easiest and most efficient ignition system for older cars. I run a Hops points distributor, Firecore wires and champion plugs in Nellas car, and it runs just fine. All distributor parts came from Hops, because he stocks OE parts and old stock stuff, not the crappy over the counter junk you buy now. Now, if you can find the old Accel points, those were great back in the day. Ray rebuilt my old Accel dual point distributor for my Roadrunner, and of course sent me pickup parts for the whole thing. I don’t by ignition pets anywhere else.
Really depends on what you want. Points will usually last 10K miles if they are the older ones. Tons of electronic to pick from. MSD and the new orange ecu's have a high fail rate so run from them. I love the Petronix I They seem bullet proof if they fail it seems to be right out of the box and that company will back their product.
Rebelrouser
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You have to collapse the magnetic field in the coil to generate a spark. That is what a set of points does. So HEI, Chrysler electronic, Petronix all use a transistor to make the field collapse and generate a spark. With these style ignitions you get one spark each time. And the amount of spark or energy is mainly controlled by the number of windings in the coil, which you can check with an Ohm meter. You should use the coil with the resistance recommended by the manufacturer for best results. The Petronic has the transistor made into the adapter piece you install. Most electronic ignition systems use a magnetic pickup to trigger the transistor or an RPM signal.
The MSD you show is a capacitive discharge system MSD stands for multiple spark discharge. you still use a transistor to make the field collapse, but you do it multiple times and capacitors store the charge. so at slower speeds you get multiple sparks in a row to fire the plug and as RPM comes up that basically turns into one long spark event. MSD works good with rich fuel mixtures and high compression. You will also find that the coil is not operated by 12 volts the capacitors charge the coil at several hundred volts.
The older type ignitions you used to check with a test light to see if the points or box was working. You would crank it and see if the test light flashed. first time I tried that with a MSD ignition the test light got really bright one time and popped the bulb.
Then on newer OEM you have all kinds of ignition systems like waste spark, coil on plug, some use optic sensors list goes on. They still use a transistor to fire the coil but the transistors many times are in the ECM of the vehicle.
Bottom line is you only need enough spark to fire your engine, more spark is not better. For older muscle cars mostly stock a Petronix or Chrysler conversion system is perfect. If you have, high compression, a big cam and it smells rich at idle for example an MSD will keep the plugs from fouling and it my run just a little better.
ynst
Well-Known Member
Maybe nobody on this forum said they're indestructible but the fact that they are marketed as a set it and forget it device contradicts your statement.
As for cam follower wear, that's why I use Echlin points with a fiber cam follower. The fiber block absorbs the lubricant and substantially slows down the cam follower wear.
But the GM HEI, just like any other electronic ignition, is expensive to repair and usually fails without warning unlike a Kettering distributor that gradually experiences performance degradation prompting scheduled maintenance.
As I see it, regular, scheduled, maintenance far outweighs the cost of a sudden expensive breakdown.
I'm not racing anymore. Haven't done any of that since '72-ish. Before that it was AA/FD and BB/FD with a magneto.
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