Fan(s) recommendations...3 inch depth max.

biomedtechguy

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I run 7 blade clutch fan with shroud and a stock radiator.
All of that is in the "soon to be for sale" or "sold awaiting shipping" category, as is my K-member, lower and upper control arms, manual steering box, most of what has come off is NOT going to gather dust in a pile until I die, waiting for the buyer who "may want it" for some reason. As I made clear in another thread, the most important things that make my car a V-Code to me are mostly still going to be there, or were gone when I bought it.
Same thing goes for pulleys, brackets, etc.
For me to put any of the stuff back on I've paid good money for quality parts and labor to replace would be going backwards.
 

biomedtechguy

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The main thing I changed was I went with Mancini racing aluminum hi flow water pump
The Wraptor system comes with an aluminum high flow water pump, across all applications for the various Wraptor systems.
I specifically asked about the Wraptor supplied water pump in my troubleshooting process for the 421 in the GTO running hot. I had read 60 pages on the Pontiac forum regarding Pontiac engines running hot (it's a widespread problem). It's obvious that the cast style impeller vanes are by far the best on those engines, vs stamped steel, and I was pleased to find that the Wraptor used that cast style.
I'm pretty sure about the cause of the GTO running hot, but it's going to have to come apart all the way down to the timing chain cover front chamber which forms the back of the water pump chamber.
The only reason why I'm bothering trying the mechanical fan to replace the Cold Case dual electric fans and shroud assembly is to satisfy the mechanic that the fan assembly is NOT the problem, so I can get him to do the majority of the work taking all the stuff off to get the divider plate gap tighter to the water pump impeller vanes.
Two things causing the problem: Goofy Pontiac design and bad information and/or poor installation. I'm pissed the guy said the GTO was ready and sure took his money for labor, so mainly because of so much work involved in fixing it, I'm going to make sure he does most of the work.
 

Dan64

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The Wraptor system comes with an aluminum high flow water pump, across all applications for the various Wraptor systems.
I specifically asked about the Wraptor supplied water pump in my troubleshooting process for the 421 in the GTO running hot. I had read 60 pages on the Pontiac forum regarding Pontiac engines running hot (it's a widespread problem). It's obvious that the cast style impeller vanes are by far the best on those engines, vs stamped steel, and I was pleased to find that the Wraptor used that cast style.
I'm pretty sure about the cause of the GTO running hot, but it's going to have to come apart all the way down to the timing chain cover front chamber which forms the back of the water pump chamber.
The only reason why I'm bothering trying the mechanical fan to replace the Cold Case dual electric fans and shroud assembly is to satisfy the mechanic that the fan assembly is NOT the problem, so I can get him to do the majority of the work taking all the stuff off to get the divider plate gap tighter to the water pump impeller vanes.
Two things causing the problem: Goofy Pontiac design and bad information and/or poor installation. I'm pissed the guy said the GTO was ready and sure took his money for labor, so mainly because of so much work involved in fixing it, I'm going to make sure he does most of the work.
Bio, if you do some looking around I think that you will find that the C.C. electric fans don't really move enough air for a high horsepower app. or one that wants to run hot for whatever reason. Not saying that they would be the cause of an overheating problem but not strong enough to overcome a less than ideal setup that many real world, modified cars live in.
 

biomedtechguy

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Bio, if you do some looking around I think that you will find that the C.C. electric fans don't really move enough air for a high horsepower app. or one that wants to run hot for whatever reason. Not saying that they would be the cause of an overheating problem but not strong enough to overcome a less than ideal setup that many real world, modified cars live in.
I'm prepared for that possibility.
I have to check depth between the radiator and pulleys on the GTO, but the vendor I bought the 17" electric fan and shroud assembly for my Roadrunner from already sent a link to a 15" variety that would fit the Cold Case radiator in the GTO.
If it's the fans that are causing it to run hot, I'm relieved and disappointed. Relieved that I don't have to remove all of that stuff to get to the water pump, but disappointed that the mechanic who did an incomplete job is right, and that Cold Case sells less than good fan and shroud assemblies.
I don't know what my next move would be if the mechanical fan shows an improvement in cooling. I'd like to replace the CC fans with a pair of SPAL fans and see how that works rather than have a mechanical fan at this point.
 

Derwud

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I'm prepared for that possibility.
I have to check depth between the radiator and pulleys on the GTO, but the vendor I bought the 17" electric fan and shroud assembly for my Roadrunner from already sent a link to a 15" variety that would fit the Cold Case radiator in the GTO.
If it's the fans that are causing it to run hot, I'm relieved and disappointed. Relieved that I don't have to remove all of that stuff to get to the water pump, but disappointed that the mechanic who did an incomplete job is right, and that Cold Case sells less than good fan and shroud assemblies.
I don't know what my next move would be if the mechanical fan shows an improvement in cooling. I'd like to replace the CC fans with a pair of SPAL fans and see how that works rather than have a mechanical fan at this point.

Fans are not fans, the SPAL fans won't simply bolt up. Something they did on my shroud was to run a divider piece between the fans to keep them the stonger one pulling from the weaker one and put 4 2 inch by-pass holes with a rubber flap..
 

451Mopar

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I was going to mention the Dakota Digital controller, but sounds like you got it already.
I have 2 Be-Cool 13" cooling fans, medium profile, about 2.48" thick. Rated at 1250 cfm each.
 

Dan64

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I'm prepared for that possibility.
I have to check depth between the radiator and pulleys on the GTO, but the vendor I bought the 17" electric fan and shroud assembly for my Roadrunner from already sent a link to a 15" variety that would fit the Cold Case radiator in the GTO.
If it's the fans that are causing it to run hot, I'm relieved and disappointed. Relieved that I don't have to remove all of that stuff to get to the water pump, but disappointed that the mechanic who did an incomplete job is right, and that Cold Case sells less than good fan and shroud assemblies.
I don't know what my next move would be if the mechanical fan shows an improvement in cooling. I'd like to replace the CC fans with a pair of SPAL fans and see how that works rather than have a mechanical fan at this point.
Does the GTO run hot driving down the road or just when it's idling/ slow speed?. Getting hot running down the road could be many different things , hot while idling is most likely not enough air flow through radiator (fans) or water pump not moving enough fluid at idle
 

biomedtechguy

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Does the GTO run hot driving down the road or just when it's idling/ slow speed?. Getting hot running down the road could be many different things , hot while idling is most likely not enough air flow through radiator (fans) or water pump not moving enough fluid at idle
It gets hot driving down the road at steady 45-50 MPH (to try to take the fans out of the equation), but absolutely nothing has changed tune or fuel related.
It actually cools down idling at 900 RPMs, with both fans running.
The temperature really climbs when I turn on the Air Conditioning.
The changes that would affect the coolant temp are:
Radiator...I've heard nothing but good things about CC radiators, but not the same on the fans, but not too many negative things.
Water pump (outstanding pump, but I question the gap being too big between the divider plate and impeller vanes)
Factory fan and shroud changed to Cold Case setup.
 

Dan64

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It gets hot driving down the road at steady 45-50 MPH (to try to take the fans out of the equation), but absolutely nothing has changed tune or fuel related.
It actually cools down idling at 900 RPMs, with both fans running.
The temperature really climbs when I turn on the Air Conditioning.
The changes that would affect the coolant temp are:
Radiator...I've heard nothing but good things about CC radiators, but not the same on the fans, but not too many negative things.
Water pump (outstanding pump, but I question the gap being too big between the divider plate and impeller vanes)
Factory fan and shroud changed to Cold Case setup.
Does the shroud have vents to let trapped air out when car is at speed?. Also wondering if the pump may have cavitation issues at rpm. If the fans are keeping the car cool during periods of idling they may not be the problem at all. Trapped air at speed could be ?. Has anyone checked the timing?, old ,crappy gas?.
 

biomedtechguy

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Has anyone checked the timing?, old ,crappy gas?.
Neither of those are the problem.
...absolutely nothing has changed tune or fuel related.
Does the shroud have vents to let trapped air out when car is at speed?.
No, but the side by side 12" fans leave so much of the shroud open, I don't believe that's a problem.
Also wondering if the pump may have cavitation issues at rpm.
See, that's the thing, and cavitation is a term I've used, but I am actually trying to describe poor or inefficient pump function, and THAT would absolutely be because the installer did not make sure the gap between the divider plate and impeller vanes was small enough.
In a 60 page long thread on the Pontiac Performance Years forum, the consensus is that gap has to be very very tight-1/10th of an inch, and the installer says Butler told him 1/16th to 1/8th, but the way he describes measuring it, and a few loose ends the car had, all causing major problems, has me doubtful that gap is as tight as it should be.
So my plan is to satisfy his concern that the fans and shroud are the problem, and if they are, well great. To test his theory, I'm removing the electric fans and shroud and putting the mechanical fan back on.
If that doesn't help, I'm going to hand him wrenches and watch him take all of the Wraptor system off to remove the water pump which is on the front of the timing chain cover, and then I'm going to see what kind of gap is there, and if unacceptable (which I think it is) I'm going to form that divider plate to where it is as close to the impeller as possible, and then put it all back together.
 

Dan64

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Neither of those are the problem.


No, but the side by side 12" fans leave so much of the shroud open, I don't believe that's a problem.

See, that's the thing, and cavitation is a term I've used, but I am actually trying to describe poor or inefficient pump function, and THAT would absolutely be because the installer did not make sure the gap between the divider plate and impeller vanes was small enough.
In a 60 page long thread on the Pontiac Performance Years forum, the consensus is that gap has to be very very tight-1/10th of an inch, and the installer says Butler told him 1/16th to 1/8th, but the way he describes measuring it, and a few loose ends the car had, all causing major problems, has me doubtful that gap is as tight as it should be.
So my plan is to satisfy his concern that the fans and shroud are the problem, and if they are, well great. To test his theory, I'm removing the electric fans and shroud and putting the mechanical fan back on.
If that doesn't help, I'm going to hand him wrenches and watch him take all of the Wraptor system off to remove the water pump which is on the front of the timing chain cover, and then I'm going to see what kind of gap is there, and if unacceptable (which I think it is) I'm going to form that divider plate to where it is as close to the impeller as possible, and then put it all back together.
Have you tried "Water Wetter" or Lucas super coolant ,it is suppose to help with cavitation. Also make sure antifreeze is no more than 50 percent of mix.
 

Hemirunner

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I used a clutch fan. It’s tight but fit fine.

C7196225-75C6-440E-9E01-EB465AA51DD7.jpeg 5F8FAF73-924C-4F94-A732-AB43BA7A14BA.jpeg
 

biomedtechguy

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Have you tried "Water Wetter" or Lucas super coolant ,it is suppose to help with cavitation. Also make sure antifreeze is no more than 50 percent of mix.
Always in both cases. Redline Water Wetter, and either premixed 50/50 green antifreeze or distilled water.
I'll know soon if it's the fans or what I suspect-the gap between the divider plate and impeller vanes being too big.
 

5.7 hemi

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Rainbowproductsonline.com check’em out.

I used this fan on a 6.1 Hemi swap for another forum member, absolutely no complaints.
 

biomedtechguy

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Rainbowproductsonline.com check’em out.

I used this fan on a 6.1 Hemi swap for another forum member, absolutely no complaints.
Very nice selection!
I already got my single 17" fan and shroud assembly delivered. It's heavy, so I think that's a good sign, for ANY product that uses an electric motor with windings.
Like a blender, or food processor, I don't care what name is on it, I'll take the heaviest one on the shelf!
 

Dan64

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Where electric fans/shroud with a serpentine set up may be real tight but doable for your 70' RR , I just can't make it happen without moving something in my 64'. I'm told that early b bodies have even less room for fans then your 70'.
Ok,@ Canadian1968, i'll bite,why the red X?. I have heard from multiple people that the pre 1966 b bodies had less room for fans than 66' and up b bodies,is this wrong?. I don't want to pass on misinformation and i'm always up for learning more about the early b's. I do know that there was no way i was going to fit a 6 1/4" radiator/fan set up in my 64' Polara with CVF wraptor and RMS Alterkation front suspension.
 

5.7 hemi

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You might’ve fit that in there, IF, you used a 66’ and up k frame in your 64’. Those k frames in the earlier cars set the engine back +/- 1.750 inches, opens up all kinds room. But you’d have to use some thinner rad/fan combo.
 

Dan64

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You might’ve fit that in there, IF, you used a 66’ and up k frame in your 64’. Those k frames in the earlier cars set the engine back +/- 1.750 inches, opens up all kinds room. But you’d have to use some thinner rad/fan combo.
I agree, when i started this build i jumped right in with the CVF and a friend of mine runs a RMS front suspension and talked me into it. This is my first early b body and it was bought as a roller so i didn't realize how tight they were. I didn't want to mess with the motor mounts on the RMS because i didn't know what other clearance issues i would have then. Seems like i always learn the hard way,lol.
 

5.7 hemi

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Me too except I did a 5.7 Hemi into my 64’ Polara 500 and used a 68’ k-frame, loads of room between the fans and stock front accessory drive. That was an added bonus!
 
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