Gunman at it again

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  1. Hemi Rebel

    Hemi Rebel Well-Known Member

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    If the second amendment to the US constitution is anything, its misunderstood. But, thats a nother topic for another thread

    Just gonna put this out there as food for thought as many call for an outright ban on guns
    As for a view to a future free of assault weapons, consider the story from the past, below, wherein a psychopath indeed finds a way:


    Bath School disaster
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Bath School disaster
    Location Bath Township, Clinton County, Michigan, USA
    Date May 18, 1927
    Target Bath Consolidated School, house, farm and wife
    Attack type School bombing, School shooting, mass murder, spree killing, murder-suicide, suicide truck bombing, shooting, fire, uxoricide
    Weapon(s) dynamite, firebombs, pyrotol, Winchester rifle, club
    Deaths 45 (38 children, 2 teachers, 4 other adults and the bomber)
    Injured 58
    Perpetrator Andrew P. Kehoe
    Motive Foreclosure of farm due to taxes for school




    The state historic site marker placed on the site.
    The Bath School disaster is the name given to three bombings in Bath Township, Michigan, on May 18, 1927, which killed 38 elementary school children, two teachers, four other adults and the bomber himself; at least 58 people were injured. Most of the victims were children in the second to sixth grades (7–11 years of age[1]) attending the Bath Consolidated School. Their deaths constitute the deadliest mass murder in a school in U.S. history and the third-deadliest non-military massacre in U.S. history, behind 9/11 and the Oklahoma City bombing.
    The bomber was school board treasurer Andrew Kehoe, 55, who died in a car bomb he set off after he drove up to the school as the crowd gathered to rescue survivors from the burning school.
    On the morning of May 18, Kehoe murdered his wife by beating her to death, then set his farm buildings afire. As fire fighters arrived at the farm, an explosion devastated the north wing of the school building, killing many schoolchildren. Kehoe used a detonator to ignite dynamite and hundreds of pounds of pyrotol which he had secretly planted inside the school over the course of many months. As rescuers started gathering at the school, Kehoe drove up, stopped, and detonated a bomb inside his fragmentation-filled vehicle with his Winchester rifle, killing himself and the school superintendent, and killing and injuring several others. During rescue efforts searchers discovered an additional 500 pounds (230 kg) of unexploded dynamite and pyrotol planted throughout the basement of the school's south wing. Kehoe apparently had intended to blow up and destroy the whole school.
     
  2. Dennis H

    Dennis H FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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    What kind of flucking monster can kill kids? Burning and rotting in hell is too good. Coward.
     
  3. 747mopar

    747mopar FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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    Right on about the second ammendment, although this might not be a political forum it just so happens that this horrific tragedy will be another catalist to start another war on the 2nd amendment "so what do you do". I want to take the time to correct my later statement, it was England that banned guns and crime went up 340% sorry my memory sucks. For those of you that don't think gun defense is being put to use read the armed citizen articles in every NRA magazine. It happens often but the press doesn't want anybody to hear of the lives saved by guns only the murders. I have a 6 & 4 yr old and I honestly don't no if I could deal with what these parents are going threw. There isn't anything that could possibly be worse than loosing a child let alone one that never even had a chance "my kids are my life". May GOD be with the families of this tragedy
     
  4. 99ss

    99ss Well-Known Member

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    316511_401559479921066_237063359_n.jpg

    The fathers of our country lived in different times and had no way to see into the future. The slaughter of innocent kids is not what they had in mind with the 2nd. It was about as is most of it; protection from the Govt. Not a right to murder or be perceived as a god given right to ignorance.
     
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    • arsinist01

      arsinist01 Banned

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      My first reaction "this is horrible".

      My 2nd thought (probably not justified, but we'll see) a mall shooting a few days ago, and now a school shooting. Wonder if obama planned this to help ban guns? (needless to say I don't trust our pres. at all)

      My 3rd thought I bet talks about banning guns will pop up in less than 12 hours (from the time I heard about it)

      And my 4th thought, it is a tragedy that this day will be used for political agenda rather than for mourning.


      I think what happened is a horrible thing. And it should never happen. Wish I was there to help, because I do have a legal right to carry concealed and I would have run into that school without a 2nd thought. Taking away guns from the millions of people in the U.S. that should be allowed to have them isn't going to help. Because the criminals and psychos will still find ways to get those guns. So instead of someone walking by, hearing what is going on and rushing in to help with their own personal firearm at the ready. Maybe they will just shake their head call the police and walk away. I spent time as an LEO and I understand completely the ramifications on both sides of gun control. Whether it be enhanced or left alone. Taking away peoples ability to effectively defend themselves will never end well. Because those people that would do them harm, aren't worried about "legally" obtaining a firearm. They will find other ways to get them, or other weapons that are just as damaging. Heck we had planes hijacked not that long ago by people with box cutters, I wish good law abiding citizens had firearms on those planes. If that was the case, we may not have even gone to war. And before anyone brings it up, yes I understand the possible consequences of firearms on airplanes (depressurization and such), but I would have been willing to live with those consequences if thousands of lives had been spared that day. And I would be willing to live with the consequences of a society that was armed rather than at war with itself about whether firearm possession is a legal right if it could have saved those children. Or at the very least had a faster response time and massively negated the damage done.
       
    • ga66mopar

      ga66mopar Well-Known Member

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      "Keep the politcal crap in the political section"
       
    • soundhd

      soundhd Well-Known Member

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      Answer to my 1st question came out in the news this morning......the shooter "shot" his way in.......no one "buzzed" him in... looks like the school district's need to look at improving their entrance ways.............very sad.......looks like they need to have to start "hardening" school entrances now.....sounds like the middle east.........

       
    • moparmarks

      moparmarks FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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      Well I'm going to go watch the game tis morning with 3 of my kids and I can't wait to hug them. I'm sooooo sad for the 20 families that won't have that chance.
       
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      • Hemi Rebel

        Hemi Rebel Well-Known Member

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        whoever said it was what they had in mind? And my priorities are fine, if the first reaction to a tragic situation is to infringeon the rights of the innocent, then I would say your priorities as a human suck! BTW, all these people sending petitions should educate themselves. They are sending them to the wrong place. I would suggest sending them to your legislator.

        http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/gun-control-petitions_n_2303506.html
         
      • terzmo

        terzmo Well-Known Member

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        Maybe the video games and violent movies should be banned as it appears the shooters in most cases are not actual gun owners who had them legally but have gotten then illegally.....(mother's guns in this case taken by son) the impetus for these crimes are started/motivated by glorifying immaginary video slaughter. If a person cannot get guns, they'll use somthing else....ie...oklahoma
         
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        • sublimegtx

          sublimegtx Well-Known Member

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          I Am Adam Lanza’s Mother

          Liza Long
          medium.jpg Three days before 20 year-old Adam Lanza killed his mother, then opened fire on a classroom full of Connecticut kindergartners, my 13-year old son Michael (name changed) missed his bus because he was wearing the wrong color pants.
          "I can wear these pants," he said, his tone increasingly belligerent, the black-hole pupils of his eyes swallowing the blue irises.
          "They are navy blue," I told him. "Your school's dress code says black or khaki pants only."
          "They told me I could wear these," he insisted. "You're a stupid bitch. I can wear whatever pants I want to. This is America. I have rights!"
          "You can't wear whatever pants you want to," I said, my tone affable, reasonable. "And you definitely cannot call me a stupid bitch. You're grounded from electronics for the rest of the day. Now get in the car, and I will take you to school."
          I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me.
          A few weeks ago, Michael pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and then himself after I asked him to return his overdue library books. His 7 and 9 year old siblings knew the safety plan-they ran to the car and locked the doors before I even asked them to. I managed to get the knife from Michael, then methodically collected all the sharp objects in the house into a single Tupperware container that now travels with me. Through it all, he continued to scream insults at me and threaten to kill or hurt me.
          That conflict ended with three burly police officers and a paramedic wrestling my son onto a gurney for an expensive ambulance ride to the local emergency room. The mental hospital didn't have any beds that day, and Michael calmed down nicely in the ER, so they sent us home with a prescription for Zyprexa and a follow-up visit with a local pediatric psychiatrist.
          We still don't know what's wrong with Michael. Autism spectrum, ADHD, Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder have all been tossed around at various meetings with probation officers and social workers and counselors and teachers and school administrators. He's been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work.
          At the start of seventh grade, Michael was accepted to an accelerated program for highly gifted math and science students. His IQ is off the charts. When he's in a good mood, he will gladly bend your ear on subjects ranging from Greek mythology to the differences between Einsteinian and Newtonian physics to Doctor Who. He's in a good mood most of the time. But when he's not, watch out. And it's impossible to predict what will set him off.
          Several weeks into his new junior high school, Michael began exhibiting increasingly odd and threatening behaviors at school. We decided to transfer him to the district's most restrictive behavioral program, a contained school environment where children who can't function in normal classrooms can access their right to free public babysitting from 7:30-1:50 Monday through Friday until they turn 18.
          The morning of the pants incident, Michael continued to argue with me on the drive. He would occasionally apologize and seem remorseful. Right before we turned into his school parking lot, he said, "Look, Mom, I'm really sorry. Can I have video games back today?"
          "No way," I told him. "You cannot act the way you acted this morning and think you can get your electronic privileges back that quickly."
          His face turned cold, and his eyes were full of calculated rage. "Then I'm going to kill myself," he said. "I'm going to jump out of this car right now and kill myself."
          That was it. After the knife incident, I told him that if he ever said those words again, I would take him straight to the mental hospital, no ifs, ands, or buts. I did not respond, except to pull the car into the opposite lane, turning left instead of right.
          "Where are you taking me?" he said, suddenly worried. "Where are we going?"
          "You know where we are going," I replied.
          "No! You can't do that to me! You're sending me to hell! You're sending me straight to hell!"
          I pulled up in front of the hospital, frantically waiving for one of the clinicians who happened to be standing outside. "Call the police," I said. "Hurry."
          Michael was in a full-blown fit by then, screaming and hitting. I hugged him close so he couldn't escape from the car. He bit me several times and repeatedly jabbed his elbows into my rib cage. I'm still stronger than he is, but I won't be for much longer.
          The police came quickly and carried my son screaming and kicking into the bowels of the hospital. I started to shake, and tears filled my eyes as I filled out the paperwork-"Were there any difficulties with… at what age did your child… were there any problems with.. has your child ever experienced.. does your child have…"
          At least we have health insurance now. I recently accepted a position with a local college, giving up my freelance career because when you have a kid like this, you need benefits. You'll do anything for benefits. No individual insurance plan will cover this kind of thing.
          For days, my son insisted that I was lying-that I made the whole thing up so that I could get rid of him. The first day, when I called to check up on him, he said, "I hate you. And I'm going to get my revenge as soon as I get out of here."
          By day three, he was my calm, sweet boy again, all apologies and promises to get better. I've heard those promises for years. I don't believe them anymore.
          On the intake form, under the question, "What are your expectations for treatment?" I wrote, "I need help."
          And I do. This problem is too big for me to handle on my own. Sometimes there are no good options. So you just pray for grace and trust that in hindsight, it will all make sense.
          I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza's mother. I am Dylan Klebold's and Eric Harris's mother. I am Jason Holmes's mother. I am Jared Loughner's mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho's mother. And these boys-and their mothers-need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it's easy to talk about guns. But it's time to talk about mental illness.
          According to Mother Jones, since 1982, 61 mass murders involving firearms have occurred throughout the country. Of these, 43 of the killers were white males, and only one was a woman. Mother Jones focused on whether the killers obtained their guns legally (most did). But this highly visible sign of mental illness should lead us to consider how many people in the U.S. live in fear, like I do.
          When I asked my son's social worker about my options, he said that the only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. "If he's back in the system, they'll create a paper trail," he said. "That's the only way you're ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you've got charges."
          I don't believe my son belongs in jail. The chaotic environment exacerbates Michael's sensitivity to sensory stimuli and doesn't deal with the underlying pathology. But it seems like the United States is using prison as the solution of choice for mentally ill people. According to Human Rights Watch, the number of mentally ill inmates in U.S. prisons quadrupled from 2000 to 2006, and it continues to rise-in fact, the rate of inmate mental illness is five times greater (56 percent) than in the non-incarcerated population.
          With state-run treatment centers and hospitals shuttered, prison is now the last resort for the mentally ill-Rikers Island, the LA County Jail and Cook County Jail in Illinois housed the nation's largest treatment centers in 2011.
          No one wants to send a 13-year old genius who loves Harry Potter and his snuggle animal collection to jail. But our society, with its stigma on mental illness and its broken healthcare system, does not provide us with other options. Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. And we wring our hands and say, "Something must be done."
          I agree that something must be done. It's time for a meaningful, nation-wide conversation about mental health. That's the only way our nation can ever truly heal.
          God help me. God help Michael. God help us all.
           
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          • Pops1967GTX

            Pops1967GTX FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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            “You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here’s why.
            It’s because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you kn
            ow the name of a single victim of Columbine? Disturbed people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he’ll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.
            CNN’s article says that if the body count “holds up”, this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer’s face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer’s identity? None that I’ve seen yet. Because they don’t sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you’ve just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.
            You can help by forgetting you ever read this man’s name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem.”

            quote Morgan Freeman Actor.........
             
          • soundhd

            soundhd Well-Known Member

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            I can see your going through a very tough situation.......I had to deal with all ages of school age children driving a school bus for 10 years....please take some advice (for what it is worth from a lay person) get counseling as soon as possible for your 13 year old (and yourself also..will help you to cope) .......if you don't it will only get worse..........


             
          • ga66mopar

            ga66mopar Well-Known Member

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            These are the same people that supports partial birth abortion candidates then demand gun controls when someone innocent gets killed. Obama voted for partial birth abortion everytime he got a chance. I don't see how one murder is different from another.
             
          • Dennis H

            Dennis H FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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            Sane people cannot explain why one is different from the other. Convenience. Unseen.
             
          • benno440

            benno440 Well-Known Member

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            dont necessarily ban guns maybe just automatics and semi automatics it wont fix the problem, but we have very strict gun laws here since the massacre in the 90's and now dont know the statistics but you never hear of a murder by gun let alone a murder at all.
             
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            • BIGBLOCKTONY

              BIGBLOCKTONY Well-Known Member

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              right on
              remember the victims/familys
               
              Last edited: Dec 16, 2012
            • 747mopar

              747mopar FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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              99ss. Why do you feel the need to judge others saying our first priority is political "our priorities as human beings suck" what do you know about my priorities or anything else about me. Do us all a favor and save your judging for someone you actually know, look at all my postings you won't find any judgements on someone else "I don't personally know they're intentions or who they are". I just got back from church where we prayed for the families while I held my 4 yr old that had fallen asleep, He and my 6 yr old daughter are my priorities and are the most cherished things in life to me as are all the children. I find what you say to be insulting and totally out of line, my first priority or should I say thought was anger, discust and the inability to comprehend how anybody could even think of doing this let alone do it. Being a parent has also made me aware of the need to preserve our great nation so they to can enjoy what we have. My first priority is the kids and always will be.
               
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              • ChargerRTguy

                ChargerRTguy Well-Known Member

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                I agree with the founding fathers could not see the future, or a right to murder, but the current administration better not mess with the 2nd Amendment. I don't really trust this administration, looking back at president Obama's past record as a senator in Illinois, in regards to private gun ownership is was not good. Now they are for the UN's small arms treaty, another gun grab scheme and now talking about the worthless assault weapon ban that expired. Studies showed that it had no effect on crime, besides according to the FBI and BATF they were used in less than 1percent of all crimes. Let me leave you with one thought, all the nations eg, Russia, China, Uganda, Germany that banned private ownership on guns,back in history, those out of control governments, there was a total of 56 million genocites and killing of innocents with no private firearm ownership. No thanks, I want to live to see my kids and grandkids grow up in this wonderful and free country of ours and be able to pass on our heritage, hunting, fishing, cars to them.
                 
              • arsinist01

                arsinist01 Banned

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                Automatics are already pretty much banned. You can't own one that was manufactured after 1986 and the requirements to get one legally are extensive. Leading a lot of the guns to be very expensive, $10k plus. Aside from a full background check by the FBI it is also required that you spend an additional $200 on a "tax stamp" for every full auto firearm you may have. Basically the liberals did a great job of making sure it is only the wealthy that can afford full auto weapons.

                As for banning semi automatics that is ridiculous. I know quite a few guys that go duck hunting or skeet shooting with semi auto shotguns, but you would have them banned. 99% of pistols are considered semi automatic, even the revolvers since you can just pull the trigger 1 more time and it fires repeatedly. So that basically takes away all slide operated firearms, even 1911's. So you're stuck with single action revolvers that require you to cock the hammer every time you want to fire the gun. Or single shot pistols, or multiple barreled pistols like derringers. A lot of predator hunters tend to use semi-auto firearms as well. AR platform rifles are very popular for predator hunting.

                So basically all we would be left with is bolt action, lever action, or single shot rifles. Pump action, lever action, bolt action, or single shot shotguns (by the way I know for a fact that it is easy enough to shoot a pump action as fast as a semi-auto shotgun). Single action revolvers or single shot pistols.

                Also there is this for your rates. http://www.gunsandcrime.org/auresult.html
                Accidental shootings did go down almost immediately, but then they seemed to stay about level. So idiots will accidentally shoot themselves no matter what. Suicide by gun rates did go down, drastically. But suicide rates stayed the same. As for murders it would seem that firearms murders were only responsible for about 1/2 of them anyways. So banning the firearms didn't really stop homicide, it stayed about the same. They just found another way of getting it done.

                There was a mass shooting in 1992 (before the ban) in australia that was done with a shotgun, one of the few guns that would remain mostly unchanged by banning semi-autos, called the central coast massacre and killed 6 people. The port arthur massacre in 96 is the one I assume you are talking about that was really big before the ban, killed 35 people. Childrens palace fire in 2000, while not a shooting was a fire started with the intent of killing people no guns used, and 15 people killed. Then the monash university shooting in 2002, killed 2 people and injured 5, thank God he was a bad shot as there could have been 7 dead.

                Simple fact is, people with the intent will find a way to kill other people no matter what. Banning firearms will only delay them for a moment in coming up with another plan or finding another type of gun that will work. And eventually firearms will be banned altogether.

                England, one of the most difficult countries to obtain a firearm in still has a reported 1,000 homicides/attempted murders a year. So obviously guns aren't the problem. People are the problem. Let the good people defend themselves against the bad however they should see fit.
                 
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