Long cranking time to start

[Mopewbie]

The best thing for you to do is take the air cleaner off and open the throttle and watch for the accelerator pump squirt.Hold the choke open so you can see what's happening. Do it 2 or 3 times. If you don't have a steady squirt each time, fuel is evaporating from the carb and you're going to have to crank it 10-20 seconds to fill the carb bowls up. You need gas in the carb and a squirt or two to get the engine fired. This would also be a good time to watch the choke butterfly close and then open shortly after the engine fires. After that it should open slowly and you should be running on fast idle until you tap the throttle to kick it off.

I'll try to make a video on Tuesday.

 

[Mopewbie]

The best thing for you to do is take the air cleaner off and open the throttle and watch for the accelerator pump squirt.Hold the choke open so you can see what's happening. Do it 2 or 3 times. If you don't have a steady squirt each time, fuel is evaporating from the carb and you're going to have to crank it 10-20 seconds to fill the carb bowls up. You need gas in the carb and a squirt or two to get the engine fired. This would also be a good time to watch the choke butterfly close and then open shortly after the engine fires. After that it should open slowly and you should be running on fast idle until you tap the throttle to kick it off.

As promised, but this time didn't even start. It usually starts at the end of the second attempt as mentioned before. This time I put more fuel than I usually do so maybe I flooded it a bit, who knows...

Car was dead cold, open the hood, removed air filter and was holding the choke open when started filming.
As you can see no issue with the amount of fuel.

I'm considering installing a pertronix or something, would that help?

Link for the video:



Thank you.

 

[toolmanmike]

As promised, but this time didn't even start. It usually starts at the end of the second attempt as mentioned before. This time I put more fuel than I usually do so maybe I flooded it a bit, who knows...

Car was dead cold, open the hood, removed air filter and was holding the choke open when started filming.
As you can see no issue with the amount of fuel.

I'm considering installing a pertronix or something, would that help?

Link for the video:



Thank you.

Very strange. It looks like enough of accelerator pump squirt and choke. I would think it would fire quickly with that.

 

[Don Frelier]

Have you checked for spark and spark quality while cranking?

 

[dadsbee]

The way it's "hitting" on the first crank. You sure timing is good?

 

[oldbee]

That choke plate seemed to slam shut pretty hard. Maybe take just a little tension off the thermostatic spring. I would also say those 4 pumps had it heading to flooded.

 

[steve340]

Your video was good and you do seem to have enough fuel available.
It is a matter sometimes of finding the right starting procedure.
Check out the ignition side of things. You need to know this is working correctly. Checking timing and operation of the distributor. Also spark plugs.
One thing I do to help narrow down if it is ignition or fuel - get a cap off an oil container and fill it with fresh fuel -- carefully dump that in to the engine trying not to get the accelerator pump to squirt. Get in the car and slowly move the throttle to about 1/4 depressed and then crank it over.
If the ignition is there it will fire.

 

[Don Frelier]

EFI does have it's merits, here's less than 3 seconds after 5 months sitting.

 

[Mopewbie]

Have you checked for spark and spark quality while cranking?

I did, yes, 4 spark testers, seemed all good. Would wrong spark plugs be a possibility?

 

[Geoff 2]

I watched the video. At the end of the first cranking session, when you let the key go, I heard it fire. No power to ign in cranking position needs to be checked out.

 

[Mopewbie]

The way it's "hitting" on the first crank. You sure timing is good?

Can always double check. Don't remember how advanced it was, what's the best timing here?

 

[Mopewbie]

The way it's "hitting" on the first crank. You sure timing is good?

And I remember I was playing with the distributor one, just rotating it while trying to start and made no difference.

That choke plate seemed to slam shut pretty hard. Maybe take just a little tension off the thermostatic spring. I would also say those 4 pumps had it heading to flooded.

Yes, the 4 squirts were just to show there was enough fuel in the bowl, i usually don't do that. I'll check the spring.

 

[Doorkicker]

I'm just jumping in here after watching the vid and reading all the comments. Here's my $0.02.

It's trying to crank at the end of the first cycle in the vid AND you can hear it doesn't appear to be getting spark during cranking... that's why (I think) it sounds like the timing is retarded.

In short, you very likely have an ignition issue. As you know, there are effectively 2 circuits (one for each key position, on and start), one for cranking and one for running and runs through the ballast resister. You may have a wiring issue or a controller issue.

Also, your choke blade is SUPER tight. On a 6pack the center carb is the only one being used at low throttle... meaning the other two carbs are also shut leaving only the center one to permit air into the intake. In short, you're very likely flooding it, starving it of air, and on top of that potentially not getting spark during cranking.

My recommendation for steps to take...

First, back off the choke - a lot. If you have to... make half closed, max. Keep in mind you're trying to start a v8 with a tiny 2 bbl carb... so once the choke is opened for starting, don't hesitate to give it a few presses on the accelerator peddle. Honestly, I wouldn't even bother with the choke... just - for now - lock it fully open so the engine is getting air.

If that fails, then put a test light or meter on the cracking circuit of the ignition and test the voltage. You might find you see nothing. If you're seeing no voltage and you're running a stock ignition system, then there is an option, which is: bypass the resistor and connect the cranking and ignition-on wires together... that will ensure voltage throughout the process. Byproduct? It will/can cause other issues if not repaired correctly. It's a Band-Aid just to confirm the issue.

HTH

 

[Doorkicker]

No, not a back up pump. One that is separate. His engine will then start instantly, & not be cranking, cranking for 20 seconds, which is bad for any engine....

I'm curious, how is cranking for 20 seconds bad for the engine?

 

[hunt2elk]

I'm curious, how is cranking for 20 seconds bad for the engine?

There isn't much oil flowing during cranking.

 

[Black_Sheep]

As Geoff pointed out, in the video it sounds like it’s firing when the ignition switch goes from crank to the run position. An easy check would be to run a jumper wire from the battery to the coil + terminal and see if it fires up while cranking. Even better, if you have a voltmeter check voltage at the coil + terminal while cranking. It should show battery voltage.

 

[Don Frelier]

As Geoff pointed out, in the video it sounds like it’s firing when the ignition switch goes from crank to the run position. An easy check would be to run a jumper wire from the battery to the coil + terminal and see if it fires up while cranking. Even better, if you have a voltmeter check voltage at the coil + terminal while cranking. It should show battery voltage.

Try your spark tester with the temporary jumper.
I'm guessing the color and intensity of the spark will be far greater.

 

[Doorkicker]

There isn't much oil flowing during cranking.

So, I suspected/expected that would be the response, but I think what we're really talking about isn't necessarily just time, but also RPM, specifically cranking RPM. In most cases, you'll get oil pressure fairly soon. Anyway, thanks for confirming.

 

[Mopewbie]

As Geoff pointed out, in the video it sounds like it’s firing when the ignition switch goes from crank to the run position. An easy check would be to run a jumper wire from the battery to the coil + terminal and see if it fires up while cranking. Even better, if you have a voltmeter check voltage at the coil + terminal while cranking. It should show battery voltage.

Just did that. We are going somewhere! Videos below.

Try your spark tester with the temporary jumper.
I'm guessing the color and intensity of the spark will be far greater.

MASSIVE difference!

I'm just jumping in here after watching the vid and reading all the comments. Here's my $0.02.

It's trying to crank at the end of the first cycle in the vid AND you can hear it doesn't appear to be getting spark during cranking... that's why (I think) it sounds like the timing is retarded.

In short, you very likely have an ignition issue. As you know, there are effectively 2 circuits (one for each key position, on and start), one for cranking and one for running and runs through the ballast resister. You may have a wiring issue or a controller issue.

Also, your choke blade is SUPER tight. On a 6pack the center carb is the only one being used at low throttle... meaning the other two carbs are also shut leaving only the center one to permit air into the intake. In short, you're very likely flooding it, starving it of air, and on top of that potentially not getting spark during cranking.

My recommendation for steps to take...

First, back off the choke - a lot. If you have to... make half closed, max. Keep in mind you're trying to start a v8 with a tiny 2 bbl carb... so once the choke is opened for starting, don't hesitate to give it a few presses on the accelerator peddle. Honestly, I wouldn't even bother with the choke... just - for now - lock it fully open so the engine is getting air.

If that fails, then put a test light or meter on the cracking circuit of the ignition and test the voltage. You might find you see nothing. If you're seeing no voltage and you're running a stock ignition system, then there is an option, which is: bypass the resistor and connect the cranking and ignition-on wires together... that will ensure voltage throughout the process. Byproduct? It will/can cause other issues if not repaired correctly. It's a Band-Aid just to confirm the issue.

HTH

thanks, I'll definitely readjust the choke blade. You can see in the first video the difference and if I had a 3rd hand to hold the choke open car would have started for sure. So I paused and held it open and it fired no problems.



NOW... thank you SO MUCH for all the suggestions, you all are brilliant! I'm learning a lot here. Electrics are definitely NOT my area. In the first video I cranked the engine without doing anything and then connecting the coil to the battery.

Second video starts WITH A DIRECT 12V and every out/in I remove / add the wire to the battery. But I don't need to say that, the difference in the spark is clear.

What's the next step?
AND... why after firing it once, the problem disappears for the rest of the day? Shouldn't persist regardless on every ignition? Thanks!

Video 1:



Video 2:

 

[toolmanmike]

As promised, but this time didn't even start. It usually starts at the end of the second attempt as mentioned before. This time I put more fuel than I usually do so maybe I flooded it a bit, who knows...

Car was dead cold, open the hood, removed air filter and was holding the choke open when started filming.
As you can see no issue with the amount of fuel.

I'm considering installing a pertronix or something, would that help?

Link for the video:



Thank you.

I watched the video. At the end of the first cranking session, when you let the key go, I heard it fire. No power to ign in cranking position needs to be checked out.

That is usually a bad dual ballast resistor. This car shouldn't have one though unless it has been converted to later model electronic.