Moog offset bushing question?

[BIGSHCLUNK]

I've never used these before. Let it be noted I'm working on my E-body NOT my GTX here. OK, this could be a case of BIGS you dumazz... but I could use a little help here. we were going to hang the UCA's tonite. I have the MOOG K7103 offset bushings. The kit comes with 2 different sized washers w 1/2" holes. They dont fit the bushings or the slots in the car (to fit flat). The hole in the bushing is bigger than 1/2" The bolts would be very sloppy. I dont see how the washers fit in relation to the bushings and if the did (fit) the bushings w the washers would be too wide for the alloted mounting space. What part of this am I missing??

Thanks

 

[dryheat]

Here is a write up from the A-bodies forum that may help you. It sounds to me like those "washers" get pressed in to the end of the bushing to make the bolt hole size work. Not sure which one goes on which side though.

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=114711

Good Luck.

 

[BIGSHCLUNK]

Here is a write up from the A-bodies forum that may help you. It sounds to me like those "washers" get pressed in to the end of the bushing to make the bolt hole size work. Not sure which one goes on which side though.

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=114711

Good Luck.

There's a similar post on C-C but the washers dont even come close to fitting the bushing sleeve IMHO. I'm afraid if I pressed them in, the holes would be to small for the bolts to fit though. ????? As it would distort the washer and the bushing sleeve. Somebody has to have done this before....

 

[Cranky]

Generally, B and E body cars don't really need the offset bushings to get enough caster/camber. Were you having alignment issues or was the car ever wrecked or are you wanting way more?

 

[Northwest]

I rebuilt my suspension last year and used these in the hope of getting more caster. (mounted one pointing in and one pointing out to try to move the upper ball joint back) Don't think it really got me much.

I remember these being to 'wide' to fit as well. I ended up getting one side to fit with the new washers and re-used one of the old washers on another side to make it fit. In the bottom pic - one side reuses the old washer. I don't recall any slop at all in my installation. I'm guessing there was a little bit of convincing involved... ITs been aligned and haven't had any problems.

 

[BIGSHCLUNK]

It has been suggested to me to use a vise and just "press" them in. One concern is that it may distort the hole in the washer (??) and - the original sleeves have full contact area with the adjuster bolt. With the washers that puts the contact area down to what... maybe 3/32's on both ends?? How long before that eggs out? Those washers look like very low grade metal to me.

Cranky - bushings were shot, went for the gusto...

 

[YY1]

...and it almost looks like the washers would put the bolt dang near back to the center of the rubber (offset in the sleeve).

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What if you sleeve the sleeve?

 

[RustyRatRod]

I've installed MANY offset bushings like that. Whoever told you to press the washers in with a vice is dead RIGHT. That's how you do it. Once they are pressed all the way on, they will fit. However, I will say this. I don't know how you installed all the bushings. But the correct way if you are trying to increase caster is with the arrows facing the FRAME on the front bushings and the CONTROL ARM on the rear bushings. This gives the biggest caster increase. If you point the arrows all toward the frame, all you have increased is the camber. MoPars usually don't have camber issues. The reason most hot rods have caster problems in the first place is because of the hot rod rake. Anytime you raise the rear in relation to the front, you decrease caster. Whether you do it with taller rear tires or with stiffer springs or air shocks, when you raise the rear, you decrease caster.

 

[BIGSHCLUNK]

Rusty thanks for verifying the "vise" thing! BUT all the diagrams I've seen (the abody link above) and on C-C show the arrows pointing exacty opposite than what you posted. This would bring the ball joint a little closer to the front of the car. Your way would put it towards the rear (if I'm reading this correctly) ??\

It seems to me in reading NORTHWEST contibution here, he did as you recomend, why are all the posted diagrams going the other way?
Thanks

 

[cheno2]

RustyRatRod is correct. To get more caster "+" you need to move the upper ball joint towards the rear of the car. More "+" caster the better the stability. Think of a bikes front forks...lots of caster. I might try those bushing to get more caster w/o buying the tubular upper arms.

 

[D575]

upper control arm toward rear of the car + caster

 

[YY1]

Uh, a furniture type caster has the axle behind the point of horizontal rotation, therefore the wheel wants to roll straight, and not tend to turn.

If you let go of a bicycle handlebar, and introduce ANY turning force from any source you will have immediate full lock turn. I think this is pretty much NOT at all desirable in a car.

Just sayin'...

 

[cheno2]

What kind of caster increase can I gain by using those bushings? I have 2 b-bodies 1964 & 1969 and also a 70 challenger.

 

[D575]

Generally, B and E body cars don't really need the offset bushings to get enough caster/camber. Were you having alignment issues or was the car ever wrecked or are you wanting way more?

Exactly, These cars have a pretty massive crossmember to hold things together. not like a Mustang or a Camaro, back in the late 70's I worked at a frame shop . I can't tell you how many mustangs and Camaro's I had to spread the towers to regain camber. and those cars were only 10 years old at the time. It seemed the first thing people would do with a Mustang, was to remove the brace that went over the engine. after that everything would bend in. The only thing the mopars ever needed was an idler arm or ball joints.

 

[YY1]

Here's what I know about front end physics-

Put the spindle farther behind the ball joints, and the wheel will return and self center better.

 

[Cranky]

Here's what I know about front end physics-

Put the spindle farther behind the ball joints, and the wheel will return and self center better.

It's putting the upper ball joint further back in relation to the lower ball joint that introduces more caster. If both upper and lower ball joints are straight up, then you have 0 caster but if you move the upper joint towards the rear of the car, then you start going to + caster and that's what helps high speed stability. With 0 caster, you can do tight turns at very low speeds and turn the steering wheel more easily especially if you have manual steering but then the car will have a tendency to wander more at highway speeds. So, the spindle will still be 'ahead' of the upper joint but will be 'behind' the lower joint with + caster.

 

[RustyRatRod]

It's real simple to figure. out. Imagine the upper and lower ball joint in your mind from the passengfer's side (front to you're right) of the car, but with them perfectly verticle, making a perfectly verticle steering axis.

Now, imagine moving the upper ball joint in front of the lower ball joint. Think for a moment what this will do. What will the weight of the car do to the tire? Now, since the upper ball joint is in front, the weight of the car now has great influence and will push down, causing the right front tire to swing out and pull to the right.

Now, again imagine the upper ball joint and lets move it behind the lower ball joint. Same side. Now what is the influence of the vehicle weight? Again, the vehicle pushes down. SO, the tire will want to go toward center. It cannot continue in a turn, because of the front end linkage.

THIS is the effect positive (upper ball joint behind lower) has on a vehicle. It is the vehicle weight pushing down on the steering axis that causes steering returnability and road stability. This is also why caster has to be set very closely (under 1/2 degree difference) on each side to keep from having a caster pull to the side with the least amount of caster.

It's not about the spindle being "behind" the ball joints. The spindle hasn't a clue whether it's in front of or behind the ball joints. It's about the tilt of the steering axis. A verticle steering axis has zero caster viewed from the side. Tilt the top of the axis toward the rear of the car and caster is positive. Tilt the top of the axis toward the front and caster is negative.

Negative caster is good for going around turns at a high rate of speed, while, generally speaking, positive caster is good for a street car for good steering returnability and high speed stability.

The next time you see a Mercedes Benz parked somewhere with the wheels turned, notice how it looks like the tire is gonna fall off. Because most Benz cars have a spec of 8 degrees or more of caster.....so when they turn, you can actually see the front of the car rise to whichever side the car is turning to, because the wheel is actually lifting the car UP as it turns, the caster angle is so great. Because not only is the steering axis turning, but it's also driving the spindle DOWN at the same time. Any car with positive caster does the same thing, just not as pronounced as the Benz cars. You can really see the effect of positive caster on those.

 

[BIGSHCLUNK]

Well now all said and done. I did have the bushings pushed correctly - but it was confusing! The vise "press" worked fine. To anyone doing this - watch your angles as you press. And check for bolt fit before installing. I had to take a rat file to the washers due to minor distortion of the holes. THANKS FOR THE INSIGHT GUYS!!!! :headbang:

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BTW - sure be nice if the intsructions (providing you get them) (I did NOT)included this info!

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Here's how far I got last night. Let it be noted the P-S-T strut rods went like a dream!

 

[cdr]

I've installed MANY offset bushings like that. Whoever told you to press the washers in with a vice is dead RIGHT. That's how you do it. Once they are pressed all the way on, they will fit. However, I will say this. I don't know how you installed all the bushings. But the correct way if you are trying to increase caster is with the arrows facing the FRAME on the front bushings and the CONTROL ARM on the rear bushings. This gives the biggest caster increase. If you point the arrows all toward the frame, all you have increased is the camber. MoPars usually don't have camber issues. The reason most hot rods have caster problems in the first place is because of the hot rod rake. Anytime you raise the rear in relation to the front, you decrease caster. Whether you do it with taller rear tires or with stiffer springs or air shocks, when you raise the rear, you decrease caster.

the direction is wrong,with the arrow as said it makes the front of the a arm shorter,and that moves the upper balljoint forward,that makes -caster.they should bit installed so the front of a arm is longer & the rear of arm is shorter! THAT will increase caster

 

[RustyRatRod]

Yup, you're absolutely right. They used to point the opposite direction. I swear to God they caint leave anything alone. Used to be you pointed the arrow toward the frame to make that side of the control arm longer. That's nuts. Best thing to do is ignore the arrow and lust look at the hole. It's really kinda self explanatory.