My BUDGET 451 build... finally

[super-bee_ski]

Ski, I think you're right, maybe that 285 cam is too big. 3000+ stall isn't for me. Lunati has a cam that needs a 2800 stall converter and has a similar duration as the XE275HL cam. Maybe I advance it a couple degrees and bring it down a hair.

https://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=2338&gid=362

Hmm,
I'd give Lunati a call
Great TECH line...
Also, someone here mentioned Hughes has a Tech line...

And; as hunt2elk posted, "Solid Lifter Cams" are mis-understood...
Not a bad set-up, of course the ocassional adjustment etc...

Typically "WE" always thought of them as a RACE Cam, but there is more to them than RACE application...

Great info on this thread HT413....

Keep us posted...
I expect to get the 440 from the shop this week...28 Nov maybe...
It was 67Satellite's 67 GTX project, I picked it up...the one with the "screaming-sound" when he started his 440 on start-up...

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The XE285HL was the major player in this whole series of 440 dyno runs.

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/showthread.php?64775-Pop-s-440-is-near-ready-to-dyno&highlight=pop%27s+440

IQ52,
I checked out your thread (451-build)
Great Torque at the lower RPM range.

PS: I had your "Pop's" 440 build and Dyno run with "Pops" here on the Forum,
So sorry man,

But yeah, low compression, stout torque
Great build...great numbers...

 

[Cranky]

I like roller cams.....be it hydraulic or solid. People say that solid roller cams are rougher on rockers etc and that's true if they if they are pretty wild. Years back I ran an Isky solid roller using their ductile iron adjustable rockers and they stayed put. A buddy ran a 600 solid non roller using the same rockers and his would not stay adjusted. That was back in the 80's and if I'm going with something in the range of 600 lift, it's going to be a roller but....you know there are many good hydraulic grinds that are rollers. Imo, best of both worlds. Yeah, they are more expensive but again imo, you get what you pay for. One huge upside to a roller.....you don't have to worry about breakin and having an oil that has a questionable about of ZDDP in it so you don't wipe it out. Oils with higher concentrations is only for the cam and pretty much nothing else. The rest of the engine lives just fine with the new oils.

 

[super-bee_ski]

Cool...

 

[HT413]

Hmmm, cranky, food for thought. If I go that way I'm sure it'll put this build into next year, so that may be the route in the future, but this time around i think it'll be flat tappet.

 

[tallhair]

Hmmm, cranky, food for thought. If I go that way I'm sure it'll put this build into next year, so that may be the route in the future, but this time around i think it'll be flat tappet.

great thread Dude !

I'm really enjoying reading along

 

[HT413]

I like roller cams.....be it hydraulic or solid. People say that solid roller cams are rougher on rockers etc and that's true if they if they are pretty wild. Years back I ran an Isky solid roller using their ductile iron adjustable rockers and they stayed put. A buddy ran a 600 solid non roller using the same rockers and his would not stay adjusted. That was back in the 80's and if I'm going with something in the range of 600 lift, it's going to be a roller but....you know there are many good hydraulic grinds that are rollers. Imo, best of both worlds. Yeah, they are more expensive but again imo, you get what you pay for. One huge upside to a roller.....you don't have to worry about breakin and having an oil that has a questionable about of ZDDP in it so you don't wipe it out. Oils with higher concentrations is only for the cam and pretty much nothing else. The rest of the engine lives just fine with the new oils.

Hmm, seems like we're talking $450 for flat tappet setup, and about $1000 for hydraulic roller. Maybe I do have the budget this winter, considering I just took on teaching another night class starting after thanksgiving.

Questions:

1) can I run a hydraulic roller lifter in the block as is, or do I need something special done with the lifter bore?

2) regarding thrust accommodations - what exactly needs to be done with cam button and timing cover to handle thrust?

3) If one finds a used roller setup that happens to be a nice fit from a trusted source (wink wink) is it a dumb idea to buy it and run it? How many miles / trips down the drag strip would be considered too many?

4) what am I not thinking of here?

 

[Garys1969RR]

I think a solid lifter cam of around .520 lift and around 295 degrees total duration would work well for you. By the way, where did you find MP ductile iron rocker arms for $50? They are used I presume.

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Oops, $75. Still a great deal!

 

[HT413]

I think a solid lifter cam of around .520 lift and around 295 degrees total duration would work well for you. By the way, where did you find MP ductile iron rocker arms for $50? They are used I presume.

Got them in a package deal like 2 years ago from a member here (can't quite remember his name). Solid MOPAR Cam and lifters (557 cam) 440 source timing set, ductile iron rockers for like $200. I sold the cam for $100 so timing set and rockers came out to like $50 a piece. And it all looks almost brand new, very few miles.

Sometimes you get lucky if you're patient.

Thanks for the cam suggestions. Can't wait to see what lunati and comp say.

 

[Garys1969RR]

I love finding great deals like that! Yes, patience works well in that area. The comp cams 282 S looks like a great solid lifter cam. Duration and lift are similar to what the 509 has, but it is a dual pattern cam.

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The XS 282 S has a Valve Lift of .520/.540. Duration @ .050 of 244/252. The 509 has 242/242 @ .050. And the 509 has worked great for me in my 451. Great torque starts at 1500 RPM and increases as RPMs go up. If I went to a solid lifter cam, I would most likely use this one.

 

[Garys1969RR]

Just remember these motors love alot of initial timing with this type of cam. Were talking 20 degrees initial and 38 total as a starting point. The later closing of the intake valve (compared to stock) results in lower cyl pressures at lower RPMs. Then as RPMs go up and cyl pressure goes up, the engine can then handle that amount of timing advance with the increased cyl pressure because of the higher RPM. It's all a matter of balance. The engine produces the most power right on the edge of ping/detonation. But if you cross over into the detonation zone then the engine will soon produce little or no power at all. Lol.

 

[HT413]

I love finding great deals like that! Yes, patience works well in that area. The comp cams 282 S looks like a great solid lifter cam. Duration and lift are similar to what the 509 has, but it is a dual pattern cam.

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The XS 282 S has a Valve Lift of .520/.540. Duration @ .050 of 244/252. The 509 has 242/242 @ .050. And the 509 has worked great for me in my 451. Great torque starts at 1500 RPM and increases as RPMs go up. If I went to a solid lifter cam, I would most likely use this one.

Hey thanks for that input. Two things I worry about are having a cam that is too small and getting detonation because of my compression ratio, or having one that's too big and having no torque down low. Great to know a 280's advertised 240's/250's @ 0.050 can produce torque down low. The XE285HL recommends 3000 stall, which is on the high side for me.

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Just remember these motors love alot of initial timing with this type of cam. Were talking 20 degrees initial and 38 total as a starting point. The later closing of the intake valve (compared to stock) results in lower cyl pressures at lower RPMs. Then as RPMs go up and cyl pressure goes up, the engine can then handle that amount of timing advance with the increased cyl pressure because of the higher RPM. It's all a matter of balance. The engine produces the most power right on the edge of ping/detonation. But if you cross over into the detonation zone then the engine will soon produce little or no power at all. Lol.

Great information, gary, thanks.

I've been foolig around quite a bit with comp's camquest online and it seems the xe275HL (230's duration at 0.050) cam makes more torque down low thanthe 285 version so I was leaning toward that (or more likely the lunati version). Plus the old adage that wen deciding between cams, always go with the smaller one lol.

However, with IQ52's tests with the XE285HL and now that you say the 509 can produce that much torque down THAT low, maybe I will step it up to something in the 240's duration at 0.050.

 

[snakeoil24]

Girdles are a waste of money the steel caps are worth the cost along with a good set of ARP studs. The stress flex point your looking to control is 1/2 inch below the center point of the main journal. The side bolting of the block is in the right place to help with this stress. HT call Dynamic converter in Delaware Frank Lupo is really a smart converter guy and all he does is Mopar! he runs sales I picked up a 9.5 street converter yes 9.5 for 530.00

 

[Garys1969RR]

Keep in mind that I am running 13 to 1 C/R with the 509 cam. And fuel mix of about 98 octane at 5400 feet. You have get your cam and C/R to work together for your RPM range. Longer duration cams can use a higher static C/R since they lower the dynamic C/R, due to the later closing of the intake valve.

 

[HT413]

Lol, didn't realize you were at 13:1 and up in Colorado. Wallace racing has the XE275HL at 8.3:1 dynamic and 166psi for my approx 10.5:1 static. Sound like a streetable combo to you? I just new to make the time to talk to lunati and comp for the final decision.

 

[Garys1969RR]

Lol, didn't realize you were at 13:1 and up in Colorado. Wallace racing has the XE275HL at 8.3:1 dynamic and 166psi for my approx 10.5:1 static. Sound like a streetable combo to you? I just new to make the time to talk to lunati and comp for the final decision.

That sounds like a very streetable cam with great power to me. Seems like a guy on here, I think his handle was Dr Mopar, used to say that was the best all around street cam avaiable! My son is running the 274 HL cam in his 383, and it works well with 12.5 to 1 C/R. Remember that we are starting with rarified air up here in Colorado, So I like alot of C/R. IQ 52 is about the same elevation as I am, and his motors produce alot of power with less C/R than I use. Its mostly due to his experience with getting great airflow thru his cyl heads.

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My 451 has propelled our 1969 RR at 3600 pounds to a best ET of 12.33 @ 110 MPH. Thats pretty fast for this altitude. When doing a burnout, you can tell that motor is making alot of horsepower!

 

[HT413]

Ok, just got off the phone with Lunati tech support. He recommends his 234/242 @0.050 cam. Says with my setup, the cam will be very detonation friendly. This is right between the comp XE275HL and XE285HL that were recommended by comp's cam quest software. Sounds like it's a go! As you guys said above, he agreed - no behive springs with this baby.

Now I can pick springs, converter, etc and get this baby built.

From LUNATI's site:

Hydraulic Flat Tappet. Hot street cam, likes 2800 converter, hi- rise type dual plane intake with 850 CFM carb, headers, 10:1 compression and 3.73 gearing. Likes up to 200 HP nitrous.

Part number: 10230704
Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 276/284
Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 234/242
Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .513/.533
LSA/ICL: 110/106
Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
RPM Range: 2200-6400

 

[Garys1969RR]

That cam should work great for you! I like the higher lift numbers, and the shorter intake duration. With the Stealth heads that thing should be a real screamer!

 

[super-bee_ski]

Keep in mind that I am running 13 to 1 C/R with the 509 cam. And fuel mix of about 98 octane at 5400 feet. You have get your cam and C/R to work together for your RPM range. Longer duration cams can use a higher static C/R since they lower the dynamic C/R, due to the later closing of the intake valve.

Yeah, I'm "building" right now....
Watching this THREAD closely...Great thread BTW HT413....

But for my build, a Torque monster 440, 13-1 compression is WAY TOO HIGH....
Im looking for a durable, reliable Street Motor Build....

Thanks HT413...
PS: My heads are Stealth Aluminum and it does have a Roller Rocker set-up....

I'm picking the block, rods, etc this week from the machine shop...

PS: HT413...
What is the RPM range for that Lunati Cam?

 

[Cranky]

Had over 300 passes on my roller setup. Shifted at 6900 and crossed at 7300 and still pulling hard. My just had a thrust button riding against the timing chain cover but have seem covers that were reinforced and have seen billet covers used. Not real sure about how a hydraulic roller setup is but would think it's similar to a solid roller setup. Mine was set up in the early 80's and there are many products out now that are probably better lol
And IIRC, I sold a 557 cam to someone on here about that time so maybe it was to you? Oldtimes is setting in hard lol

 

[superbird77]

Although its a little bit off of what the OP is building i have a 383 (450 stroker) i just built. It will actually be run on the dyno next week so i can report some actual numbers. My build is a 450 stroker, bored .030 over, Lunati #10230703 cam (.494/.513) Roller Rockers, Stealth heads, Holley Street Dominator intake, Holley 770 Street Avenger carb, Dougs Headers.

I can report back what kind of numbers it put out next week.