How Loud are Adjustable Rocker Arms with Hydraulic Cam?

[Bee1971]

Sewing machine on steroids with my Comp XE285.

X2

XE 275HL

383/432 Stroker that I built

 

[PurpleBeeper]

X2

XE 275HL

383/432 Stroker that I built

Thank you VERY much bee1971!!! That is the level of sound I am hearing from under my hood too. That makes me feel a lot more comfortable about my car.

By the way, your Super Bee is absolutely beautiful! I've always wanted a '71 Super Bee

 

[coloradodave]

Followed the old Direct Connection valve adjustment decal. Start at TDC #1 firing and adjust one intake/one exhaust, rotate clockwise 45-degrees (I have degree tape on my harmonic balancer) & repeat.

At each 45-degree rotation, I loosened the appropriate adjustment nuts & backed off the screws. Then I rotated the pushrod with one hand, while I slowly turned the screw in, until I felt the pushrod seat in the lifter. Each time, I went in/out with the adjustment screw 3-4 times to be sure I had found the "zero pre-load", noted the direction of the adjustment screw, turned it in 3/4 turn & tightened the lock nut.

Am I understanding you correctly when you say you put the engine on #1 TDC and adjusted #1 INT & EXH, then turned the engine 45* and adjusted #8, etc. through the firing order? If so, that's not correct. After #1, the crank should be turned 90*, not 45*. The cylinders fire 90* apart. Maybe I misunderstood you...

 

[PRHeads]

On that 440-6 with the xe284 I did, when I had it on the dyno........ the real thrashing started at about 5000rpm.
I had some MP HD stamped rockers and adjustable pushrods on hand, so I tried them to see how much difference the noise was.
It was a little quieter, but it also lost 8hp compared to the HS rockers...... so they went back on.

Ultimately...... I ended up changing the cam.

 

[BSB67]

It was a little quieter, but it also lost 8hp compared to the HS rockers...... .

Kinda surprised it was only 8 hp

 

[65hemi]

Try adjusting the valves using the EOIC method rather than the old Direction Connection method.
http://www.cpgnation.com/forum/threads/comp-cams-quick-tech-video-how-to-set-valve-lash.4986/

 

[PurpleBeeper]

Am I understanding you correctly when you say you put the engine on #1 TDC and adjusted #1 INT & EXH, then turned the engine 45* and adjusted #8, etc. through the firing order? If so, that's not correct. After #1, the crank should be turned 90*, not 45*. The cylinders fire 90* apart. Maybe I misunderstood you...

No sir, that is not what I did. I did this

And my mistake.....I rotated the crankshaft 90-degrees each time (1/4 turn on balancer) sorry about that.

 

[dadeo]

Try adjusting the valves using the EOIC method rather than the old Direction Connection method.
http://www.cpgnation.com/forum/threads/comp-cams-quick-tech-video-how-to-set-valve-lash.4986/

This is the method I've always used (solids or hydraulic) and worked 100% of the time for me. That being said, if you want peace of mind, maybe go back and pull the covers and try this. At least then you know it's not you.
So when exhaust just opens check intake, and when intake just closes check exhaust.

 

[PRHeads]

Kinda surprised it was only 8 hp

It’s funny you say that....... at the time of that test(about 20 years ago), I was thinking the difference would be less than that....... and was kinda surprised at the 8hp difference.

 

[BSB67]

It’s funny you say that....... at the time of that test(about 20 years ago), I was thinking the difference would be less than that....... and was kinda surprised at the 8hp difference.

I've never done a comparison test between them. And I have not used a stamped rocker set on any of my stuff in 40 years. As a kid 40 years ago, simply looking at an adjustable verses the stamping I said, "there has to be some power in those ductile iron adjustables", and never looked back. Of course, I adjusted them to between 0.002" and 0.003" preload on hydraulics. Never tested that either, but just about anyone that seemed to know something back then did it that way.

 

[PurpleBeeper]

Try adjusting the valves using the EOIC method rather than the old Direction Connection method.
http://www.cpgnation.com/forum/threads/comp-cams-quick-tech-video-how-to-set-valve-lash.4986/

Thanks 65hemi, but that is basically what the Direct Connection chart does....making sure the valve you're adjusting is on the base circle of the cam. I am leaning towards pulling off one of the valve covers to check for "contact marks" from the rocker arms, just to be sure. I definitely had this problem with factory valve covers with baffles.

It seems like the old Isky ductile iron rocker arms are pretty tall. With the factory valve covers, the adjustment nuts were hitting the baffles (why I had cut the baffles out).

These valve covers were recommended by someone on this site for better clearance. I first tried them by sitting them down on the heads with no gasket & it seemed like they cleared OK....but I'm probably talking about a clearance issue of .080" with the factory valve covers, so maybe I couldn't tell? Also, I "thought" I would be able to feel a thump/thump/thump by putting my hand on top of these new valve covers if I had a clearance problem, but I didn't feel anything. Maybe I'm paranoid? The engine sure does sound like Bee1971's stroker motor. THANKS AGAIN BEE FOR THAT VIDEO!

 

[PurpleBeeper]

I've never done a comparison test between them. And I have not used a stamped rocker set on any of my stuff in 40 years. As a kid 40 years ago, simply looking at an adjustable verses the stamping I said, "there has to be some power in those ductile iron adjustables", and never looked back. Of course, I adjusted them to between 0.002" and 0.003" preload on hydraulics. Never tested that either, but just about anyone that seemed to know something back then did that way.

Hey BSB67, how did you set the lifter pre-load like that? Did you use a dial indicator on the "nose" (valve side) of the rocker arm?

I've just turned mine in 3/4 turn. I went an extra 1/4 turn to be SURE I wasn't leaving any lash in the valvetrain.

 

[wagonman]

I have the Isky Iron rockers with a Comp XE 268 and their Hi energy lifters. During cam break in every thing was nice and quiet. After about 200 miles it started getting a lifter clacking noise when cold. I readjusted the valves, tried different oils, added a high pressure spring to the stock pump and the noise is still there. After warm it is pretty quiet with a slight sewing machine noise. Did a search on Comp lifter complaints and there are a bunch out there. Called Comp and they said we never heard of that with our lifters, Yeah Right. With about 6K miles on it I am going to pull the engine and transplant the 470 in it. Then tear down the 440 to see whats what. The 440 will then go in My Duster project with a new cam and diff lifters, NOT Comp.

 

[BSB67]

Hey BSB67, how did you set the lifter pre-load like that? Did you use a dial indicator on the "nose" (valve side) of the rocker arm?

I've just turned mine in 3/4 turn. I went an extra 1/4 turn to be SURE I wasn't leaving any lash in the valvetrain.

The "rule" was 0.010" preload or less. Generally, that is about 1/4 turn. Obviously the key to all of this is finding true zero preload.

Especially with today's low quality lifters that seem to have real mushy plungers, it is both a look and feel thing. You'll need a good light to watch the lifter plunger for movement, either the correct size allen wrench or a small flat head screwdriver that you can spin between your index finger and thumb, depending on the type of adjuster, and a feeler gauge. Loosen everything up and lightly move the push rod up and down gently, and then the rocker to practice feeling while watching where zero might be. Then put the 0.003" feeler between the rocker and valve and gently sneek up on what looks like and feels like zero with the Allen or screw driver. With very light torque on you driver, pull out the feeler gauge. You"ll be at zero. Then the amount that the driver spin between your finger and thumb you tighten the adjuster by the same amount. In short, its like spinning the driver from 12 o'clock position to about 1 o'clock.

Most will tell you to only do this with lifters that have plunges secured with a truarc snap ring, but I've done this on both styles without issue.

 

[PRHeads]

Just so everyone is on the same page....... none of the cam grinders make their own hyd flat tappet lifters.
There are only a couple US manufacturers, and currently there might only be one making .904 lifters in the US.

 

[wagonman]

Yeah probably Hoo Flung Poo. My machine shop said the on diff between the Hi Energy and Magnum lifters is the HE uses the cheaper wire type and the Mag uses a snap ring type. IDK??

 

[Glenwood]

Same noise on my 426 with lunati 60303, lunati lifters and crane adj rockers. The alum cast covers made no difference over the chrome nor did the headers over the manifolds in masking the noise. I plan on pulling the rockers soon to take a look for abnormal wear incase rocker oiling has been inadequate.

 

[PRHeads]

What you can usually count on is.......
Fast rate hyd cam = increased valvetrain noise.
It’s not just a Mopar thing either.
Nature of the beast in my experience.

Another story from yesteryear......
Again, very shortly after the Comp XE lobes came out we rebuilt a 305 SBC/Mercruiser Marine engine.
It was just tired and was due for an overhaul.
We rebuilt it to stock specs, although the owner wanted a bit more low end grunt for pulling water skiers.
We put in one of the smaller XE grinds.
Owner was happy with the overall performance, but the valvetrain noise from 4000 up was unacceptable.
He thought there was a serious problem with the motor.
The owner of the shop I was working for at the time went and checked everything out, and nothing was “wrong”...... it was just that noisy.
We ended up having to swap out the cam for the guy.
Used a factory replacement marine cam like what it would have had originally........ no more noise.

 

[PurpleBeeper]

I had one more idea that I didn't check. What if my rocker arm shafts have come slightly loose? That would make my valve lash adjustments mean nothing...actual lash ALL over the place & if they're only slightly loose, I'd never notice. Just a thought.

I do plan to pull one valve cover. I will be checking for "witness marks" from the rockers on the bottom of the baffles (just to be sure). I will check the rocker shaft bolt(s) torque & maybe re-set the lash on that side (why not?) & pay attention to the before/after line of the adjustment screws....basically unchanged, I'm done....several big changes, I re-set the lash on the other side too (& check the rocker shaft bolt torque).

If I do see rocker arm "witness marks", then I think I'll have two options. 1. Drill holes right at the contact points on the baffles. 2. Add a 2nd valve cover gasket to each side & RTV/glue the two gaskets together (+ run longer valve cover bolts). Anyone have experience or an opinion on option #1 vs. #2 if I have to increase my rocker/valve cover clearance?

THANK YOU!

 

[steve340]

Leaving your baffles in one piece and using a valve cover spacer is the best option.
Drilling holes in the baffles or taking them out causes PCV and other oil problems.
Factory baffles are adequate at best but some aftermarket ones are useless.