Solid Rollers or Flat Tappet for street and strip. Looking for LONGEVITY and low maintenance!

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  1. HEMI-ITIS

    HEMI-ITIS STREETER on LI FBBO Gold Member

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    70rcode,your right and it's big enough~:BangHead:
     
  2. rumblefish360

    rumblefish360 Well-Known Member

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    What size is the roller wheel?
     
  3. HEMI-ITIS

    HEMI-ITIS STREETER on LI FBBO Gold Member

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  4. BSB67

    BSB67 Well-Known Member

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    • Meep-Meep

      Meep-Meep дворянин

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      A 541" engine might make some good power to 5000 RPM. Or let's just say you should not have to spin it to reach the power goal. You want reliable. Well, here you go. Cam specs that require a lot of valve spring reduces reliability. Hydraulic lifters can only tolerate a max of 350 PSI of spring and some will tell you no one makes a good hydraulic lifter anymore. High RPM takes its toll on parts.

      If it were me I'd focus on using the cubic inches to my advantage. Keep the compression on the low side so it can deal with crap gas in high temps. The intake closing point that provides about 160-170 PSI of cylinder pressure. A cam with a ramp rate that can fill the cylinder but not so aggressive that it needs a ton of spring. Focus not on peak power but on making the most average power in the RPM range you will spend most of the time.

      I see a wide LSA cam that idles nicely while providing the ideal 350 FPS of port velocity. If you can get a roller on a cast billet so you can avoid running the bronze oil pump drive I'd use that. Set bearing clearances for a 30 wt oil. Too much viscosity will put a strain on the oil pump drive gear. Dial in the fuel metering so the oil stays clean and you don't wash the rings. Pay particular attention to the idle feed and transfer slot circuit because that is where you will spend 80% of your driving time. If EFI then I suppose it should take care of itself. The mixture must enter each cylinder as a fog (for lack of a better term) in order to burn properly. If using a carb I recommend keeping the intake heat open but insulating the carb to control fuel bowl temps. The hot intake will be excellent for daily driving and cold starts. Keeping the carb cool will help with the vapor lock after shut down. EFI will be the best since it's a closed system.
       
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      • biomedtechguy

        biomedtechguy Accelerati Rapidus Maximus FBBO Gold Member

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        I agree, although I'd like the RPM capability to be at least the 6,200 redline I have now, (stock 6bbl bottom end). I can get a taller rear tire, and hold off on switching back to 3.54 from 4.10 gears.
        Is there something in between for a Dana 60?
        Solid flat tappet lifters I have thought would be the best low maintenance high reliability option? Especially for a lot of stop and go traffic.
        Although crap gas isn't an issue for me now, I envision a future road trip drive to Oklahoma to see Farmtruck and Azn, and "Power Tour" type events. I know that :lowdown: Jim Laroy has made good power without much compression.
        I am more interested in a fat torque curve than peak horsepower. My torque number goal is 700 ft lbs.
        Hydraulic roller?
        The Weiand intake I'd really like to use doesn't have a heat crossover. Definitely not a daily driver, other than the week of Cruisin the Coast, or the aforementioned cruising events or bucket list trips.
        6bbl setup, even if EFI, is a must, non negotiable. "Cold" definitely not common where I drive and live and race.
        Good advice, much appreciated!
         
      • 440rb

        440rb Well-Known Member

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        As a refresher for info only>
        4.500" stroke, 10:1cr, Street solid roller, .625/.625"/260/270@.050, 200lbs seat, 600 open springs. Indy -13 (365CNC) race heads, prob only around 340cfm@lift of cam, 1.55 Jesels, spray bar oiling, so .621 lift with lash, 440-2 intake with a puny 950HP, 2.1/8th" hdrs. 694hp@5500 which carries through to 5900. 720ftlbs@4400 at only 33 deg total, didn't like any more, on pump premium, our shell V-power. No issues at all, starts runs/street drives/races real good.
         
        Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
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        • biomedtechguy

          biomedtechguy Accelerati Rapidus Maximus FBBO Gold Member

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          Educate me on solid rollers and street use about:
          Oiling in stop and go traffic. I'd rather not have spray bar oiling.
          Rebuilding the lifters.
          How many miles/year do you drive?
          How often do you check lash?
          Thanks
           
        • 440rb

          440rb Well-Known Member

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          Well I'm sure the guys here who know a lot more than I do about s/rollers as I've never ran one on my junk so all I can tell you is what we've done with ours and thats about it. The spray bar oiling you won't have cos of the 270's, we have it cos of the jesels/heads. Even that is ok for the short journeys to and from the track and the odd show John goes to, all in all so far this year he's done approx 70mls only and all looks ok, its stop start and low revs that are not so good but all you need do is keep rpm's up in that event, otherwise they work well but again its not in your criteria.
          The motor has had 4>5 dyno pulls and these 70mls on them + around 15 -1/4m runs to date, we checked lash recently and they were spot on, as far as rebuilding lifters I couldn't find a bill for the lifter type but they are mostly all rebuild able I believe. Not sure it would be the best way to go as you plan on doing 1000mls+?....plenty have done it on and are doing it on drag week, but......The benefits for you of a s/roller are negligible, there's plenty of sft cams that will give you a 6200rpm max power potential and more without the need for big spring pressures and therefore you could use HS r/rockers which are reasonable on price, only downside to an sft can be break in and wear as you know, but with edm lifters etc., I would contact (fast68plymouth) the cam guru for advice, I asked him about an sft for ours and he didn't think going too radical was a good idea, .650-ish was his limit depending on the lobe types. I don't know what material they use today for them but back in my day the CC .650" sft I ran gave me no probs and I broke it in myself with the double springs and nor did the DC .590 sft in the 340 car. Anyhow I'm sure you'll make the right decision and everything will work out just fine
           
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          • biomedtechguy

            biomedtechguy Accelerati Rapidus Maximus FBBO Gold Member

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            Thanks. It just seems like hydraulic flat tappet lifters would "hold me back" with the 541 stroker build, although the Comp Cams HFT lifters I put in my 440 6bbl a year after I got my Roadrunner (6 years ago May 2014) have been flawless and go to 6,200 RPMs in concert with the springs, locks, and retainers I got from Comp. I put Comp hydraulic roller lifters in the warmed over 421 Tripower, and the Comp Cams cam, springs, etc the engine builder specced for it, and while it's bore to stroke ratio isn't as conducive to wind as high as my 440, it's running H beam rods, ARP hardware, forged aluminum pistons, so it can spin up pretty good too, and I've had no problems with it either.
            Given all factors, it's still looking like SFT lifters are a good choice, and solid rollers are a no go. I don't want to have any oiling problems with stop and go traffic, or have to rebuild lifters, or have problems with hydraulic lifters collapsing or pumping up. The larger diameter of the Mopar lifter allows for a more aggressive cam profile than other manufacturers, but solid flat tappet lifters as my preference doesn't mean I want, nor do I expect to need, a radical cam.
            Hopefully by next October (2021) I'll be doing a thread on "541 BMP stroker motor impressions".
            Thanks for the replies!
             
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            • HEMI-ITIS

              HEMI-ITIS STREETER on LI FBBO Gold Member

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              I use comp solid roller with push rod oiling and pressurized oil to the needles. They are AMC 848,but they have been superceded.
              Cam lift under .670 with 550 lbs over the nose and go 5k miles before the lifters needed rebuilding. I street drive and beat it regularly:rolleyes:.
              In a normal year I might get 30 or so 1/4 mile laps and driven to several cruise nights. SFT lifters have their place and I don't care for them.
               
            • biomedtechguy

              biomedtechguy Accelerati Rapidus Maximus FBBO Gold Member

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              Good example my friend, because I know you street drive your car, AND it is quite the ride (I'll experience first hand one day)
              If I can get out as often as I'd like to, I'd go to 3 local shows each month, and Test and Tune night say twice a month, plus put say 500 miles on my car the week of Cruisin the Coast.
              One thing that is the opposite of what I'm wanting from my stroker build is having to get solid rollers rebuilt. Although the Pontiac 421 Tripower has hydraulic roller cam and lifters, I don't think they are the best choice for the 541. So that pretty much leaves solid flat tappet lifters, and I just don't know what kind of problems or increased maintenance they could possibly bring, other than occasionally checking lash.
               
            • Meep-Meep

              Meep-Meep дворянин

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              One of the best if not the best solid roller lifters is the Isky Red Zone bushed roller. Many will prefer a solid roller over a hydraulic because of questionable reliability of the hydraulic. But then again how much spring are the questionable reliability folks using?

              I'm sure you can get a 3.73 for a dana 60 but that equates to a 5% difference to the 3.54. 540 inches properly built should not care if it's a 3.54 or a 3.73.

              I think of torque as the ability of getting the job done and HP as knowing the job is getting done. My Cummins has 800 ft lbs at 1500 RPM and I never knew it until I had a one ton chassis motorhome on a trailer and drove off like I had nothing on a trailer. HP is what moves you because without the time factor you could have all the force in the world exerted on a mass but never move the mass in a given time. Having a flat torque curve that starts early would make for a great driver (slant 6 on steroids). 6000 RPM redline should be fine with good parts and a light bob weight.

              I'm running a 6 BBL with the heat crossover open, and while that may be leaving power on the table, I'm getting 13.5 MPG commuting (yes it's been my commute car for a couple of months now) and literally idles and dives very consistently even in the 100 deg heat. The thing I notice is the pinging on 91 gas only when the air temp is hot. Mixture temp plays a huge roll in controlling pinging and is why I say to get the intake temp fully saturated and tune it for that. If the intake heat is non existent mainly the cold drivability will suffer. Again, the mixture must enter every cylinder in a fog state in order to burn properly.
               
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              • 66Satellite47

                66Satellite47 FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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                Bio, for the motor you're building, a hydraulic should not be considered. Flat tappet solid would be a good choice. Many grinds available to meet your application. A solid roller is a viable option, but much more expensive and may not have the reliability you would want, also probably not much more performance.
                 
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                • biomedtechguy

                  biomedtechguy Accelerati Rapidus Maximus FBBO Gold Member

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                  Thanks...
                  The whole "rebuilding lifters every xxxx miles" isn't something I want to deal with. I'll let the extra cubic inches make up for any lost performance I may suffer for choosing a solid flat tappet cam and lifters. The block with my name on it should be coming up soon from Bill Mitchell Products. I hope it's not for another 6-8 weeks though, because I am about to pay a very steep (but well earned) labor bill, and it's going to take about 6 weeks to do a few bigger jobs to put together the balance due. COVID-19 has some of my regularly scheduled work delayed, and while I can't complain compared to other vocations, and it's mostly delayed work and pay, still...
                  My Roadrunner should be sprung from "shop jail" tomorrow. I set my 3 way Viking "Street Extreme" rear shocks yesterday for cruising, and spoke with Smith Racecraft about a starting point for my Assassin traction bars, and set those.
                   
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                  • INTMD8

                    INTMD8 Well-Known Member

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                    I think the rebuild/replace due to maintenance is more of an issue with a needle bearing lifter.
                     
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                    • Hemirunner

                      Hemirunner Well-Known Member

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                      The needle bearing lifter has been around for a long time. It’s a durable design assuming it gets the needed lubrication. The issues that occur using this design on the street seem to stem from too much or too little valve spring pressure or too little lubrication. Set up properly, they’ll do the job reliably. Bushing roller lifters are the new trick of the week. We’ll see how well they hold up.
                       
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                      • INTMD8

                        INTMD8 Well-Known Member

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                        Bushing lifters aren't new, they have been around forever.

                        The newer (if you can call it that) trick of the week would be the Morel's I posted though they started development in 2010 and tested until 2016.

                        That technology is actually old as well however, starting with big diesels. (No bushing or bearing, axle dissimilar metal to wheel and direct oil fed like a main bearing).

                        I've not seen any reliability issues with them but the upside is, if it did have a failure it doesn't send hardened needle bearings into the bottom end.

                        Agreed that valvetrain instability/lubrication is the most likely causes of failure vs the design of the lifter itself.
                         
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                        • Hemirunner

                          Hemirunner Well-Known Member

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                          Yes, none of this technology itself is new, but as for lifter availability and use in the high performance world, it’s the latest flavor. I have a set in my current combo.
                           
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                          • BSB67

                            BSB67 Well-Known Member

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                            What a reduculoius statement. It's funny what people choose to believe. OEMs have been using them for 30 years. Do they recommend rebuilds every xxxx miles? Do you hear about failures?

                            Everything has a life expectancy. Realistically, what mileage will you put on it annually? How many years before you think you'll be back into the motor?

                            And, let's pretend for arguement sake that your lifters should be replaced/rebuilt every 30,000 miles. That's like a 3 hour job.

                            Finally, talking which cam type will make more power/last longer in a vacuum of what the specific cam lobes/spring pressures are is simply a circular discussion. It is impossable to answer the question.
                             
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