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Valvetrain clatter/noise

The pic in post 177. And only able to go by the pic but the two valve look like different brands. The chamfer is different, as is the colour. If they are different brands, then they might use different lock designs, & the position on the valve stem could also be different, which could explain the differences in the pic. If this is so, then there may be nothing wrong with those two valve assys, but they should be checked considering the other anomalies that have been found.
All of the exhaust valves were replaced. All
the intakes were cleaned up. Definitely looks
to be two different style valves. Checked locks
on each and they look be their same
respective depths.
We did find a difference in installed spring
heights between the new exhaust valves
and the existing intake valves. An average
of the exhaust being .03 higher. Could this
be the magic bullet? We're gonna spin the
engine over and try this again. Would you
happen to know what the distance is
supposed to be between coils (installed).?
The one thing that has me scratching my head,
the passenger side is quiet with the changes
we've made.
 
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Could it be due to the lack of spring pressure there is valve float at low rpm, potentially causing the push rod to punch a hole in the rocker?

Would you
happen to know what the distance is
supposed to be between coils (installed).
You need to know the installed height, the actual valve lift and know the coil bind height to determine if the spring is suitable.
The space between the coils depends on all the above and can be different with any setup.

The one thing that has me scratching my head,
the passenger side is quiet with the changes
we've made.
You replaced all springs, right?
So could be you have provided more spring pressure which reduced the noise, but with that different valve on #3 this could still be making noise due to the spring pressure is still too low.
Find the installed height on that odd exhaust valve and find out the spring pressure from the brand/type you used at that height, it could be too low.
 
It def should all get a thorough look over.
Best reply in thread.
If a guy wants to learn to be a cylinder head rebuilder, this is not the motor for it.
Find some used heads for that?
 
If a guy wants to learn to be a cylinder head rebuilder, this is not the motor for it.

I don’t know...... it’s as good of a candidate as any.

If I’m understanding it right, the motor was built over 20 years ago, and never fired??

If that’s the way it went down, then I would have pulled the heads before trying to start it.
That way all the clearances and such(spring loads, installed heights, coil bind heights, retainer to seal clearance, etc) could be verified, along with just as importantly......cleaning and relubing the valves & guides.
 
Yes. Will be a lot more pages and posts (10, 185), but I do hope for the best.
 
If the other side seams fine with the changes, why not swap the parts to & fro to verify its definitely the valvetrain/head on the problem side?
Is it possible one head had more work(machining & shaving) than the other? An old school builder may have done this, and your guy just cut equal amounts and got into a problem area. That or a head was replaced long ago with one that was trouble & your builder just did what he had to make it work...
I'm just thinking whats going on is deeper than anyone will ever know(or be able to verify)...
 
Just saw this pic 177. Much better angle. Is there a groove or lip just above the split lock?
 
Is it possible that the intake valve stem was ground down because of a worn out valve seat where the head of the valve could get temporarily jammed causing the pushrod to go through the rocker.
 
Looks like a dark ring just above the split lock on the ground stem valve. I dont see that on the other valve.
 
Could it be due to the lack of spring pressure there is valve float at low rpm, potentially causing the push rod to punch a hole in the rocker?


You need to know the installed height, the actual valve lift and know the coil bind height to determine if the spring is suitable.
The space between the coils depends on all the above and can be different with any setup.


You replaced all springs, right?
So could be you have provided more spring pressure which reduced the noise, but with that different valve on #3 this could still be making noise due to the spring pressure is still too low.
Find the installed height on that odd exhaust valve and find out the spring pressure from the brand/type you used at that height, it could be too low.
Thanks for the info. Yes, in hindsight this
motor should have disassembled and cleaned.
But one would assume the builder knew
what he was doing as far as checking
clearances. He built 100's of 440's for the
oilfields.. I trusted his reputation. Sadly,
he is no longer with us, or I wouldn't be on
this Forum seeking help and advice.
I would hold him to his promise of warranty.
Your suggestions for troubleshooting are
being persued.
I don't believe it to be too soft of a spring.
I think it's due to the flattened and cracked
Rocker shaft. The first two bolts in the shaft
can't be trusted for torque values.. The
flattened shaft will supply faulty preload
for the lifter and an incorrect pushrod length.
 
Looks like a dark ring just above the split lock on the ground stem valve. I dont see that on the other valve.
The other valves are the intakes that were just
cleaned up. They were in the heads before
they were rebuilt.
 
Is it possible that the intake valve stem was ground down because of a worn out valve seat where the head of the valve could get temporarily jammed causing the pushrod to go through the rocker.
Thanks for the heads up. Going to install a new
Rocker shaft and rockers so I can get an
accurate length for a pushrod.
 
So the ground one is a new exhaust then? Are the rest of the exhaust valves cut like that one?
 
And they are all 4 groove stems with 3 groove keepers? Or 4 groove keepers. Sorry but it’s been 20 years since I did Mopar heads. It’s just that I don’t ever remember leaving an unfilled groove in a valve nor cutting a stem so much.
 
If the other side seams fine with the changes, why not swap the parts to & fro to verify its definitely the valvetrain/head on the problem side?
Is it possible one head had more work(machining & shaving) than the other? An old school builder may have done this, and your guy just cut equal amounts and got into a problem area. That or a head was replaced long ago with one that was trouble & your builder just did what he had to make it work...
I'm just thinking whats going on is deeper than anyone will ever know(or be able to verify)...
Thanks GrabberGreen,
the same changes were made to the problem
side, and now have it isolated to one or maybe
two lifters/pushrods and a defunct rocker
shaft. My best guess at this point is it's
the rocker shaft, since everything else is the
same, unless, like you mentioned, there's
differences in valve seat depths or head
resurfacing.
Preliminary check of installed spring heights
at this time don't point in that direction.
The machining bill does state .010 was
removed from the heads for cleanup.
It could be one bad lifter from a batch of 16.
 
Try to "rotate" that spring from the odd valve, if you can you there is very low spring pressure.
Or you have been raised eating a lot of spincach. :)

Did you check several cylinders when checking for pushrod length when ordering new ones the last time?
Even due to the damaged rocker shaft, i don't see how the lifter pre-load would have been the source.
You mentioned the shaft is out of round by .015", if your calculated pre-load given from the push rod length is higher than that, the hydraulic lifters will compensate for that during the motion if needed.
I assume the rocker shaft was crushed at the mounting bolt/stand section, this would still give a solid "body" for the rocker to sit on and should affect pre-load or alter things to much, worst case is that the shaft just sits .015" lower than normal.

Valve seat depth relative to the rocker shaft center do not really matter as long as all valve tips are machined to sit at the same height to ensure the valve train geometry is same for all.
You checked already that the valve tips are level so that should have been taken care off properly by the builder.
 
Try to "rotate" that spring from the odd valve, if you can you there is very low spring pressure.
Or you have been raised eating a lot of spincach. :)

Did you check several cylinders when checking for pushrod length when ordering new ones the last time?
Even due to the damaged rocker shaft, i don't see how the lifter pre-load would have been the source.
You mentioned the shaft is out of round by .015", if your calculated pre-load given from the push rod length is higher than that, the hydraulic lifters will compensate for that during the motion if needed.
I assume the rocker shaft was crushed at the mounting bolt/stand section, this would still give a solid "body" for the rocker to sit on and should affect pre-load or alter things to much, worst case is that the shaft just sits .015" lower than normal.

Valve seat depth relative to the rocker shaft center do not really matter as long as all valve tips are machined to sit at the same height to ensure the valve train geometry is same for all.
You checked already that the valve tips are level so that should have been taken care off properly by the builder.
Wietse,
First I gotta say thanks for being persistent. This is all new to me. I'm a retired (47 years done)
mechanical engineer, and try to approach
mechanical failures in a progressive, logical
manor. Most experience in suspension/drivetrain.
Yes, we did try to turn each and every valve spring,
and couldn't turn any of them. Using a brass
hammer, we bounced all the valves. I know it's
just a 'feel' but all seemed equal bounce, and none
we're stuck, or felt like they wanted to. I looked
up the specs on sealed powers' VS675 spring
and checked it's applications. It's used in
everything from a 426 Max Wedge to a wide
variety of 440's in A,B, bodies and a number of
trucks as well. And is used in cam lift applications
in the .480 range. The .015 dim on the shaft was
taken from parallel with the mounting holes to
90 degrees opposed. And with a two inch long
crack in the tube, I would think with rapid forces
of valvetrain operation, the tube is going to bounce around a bit.
 
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