Flat Tappet Cam Info... Don't let the southern drawl fool ya... This guy knows what he's talking about.........
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Holeeeee crap, that dude really sounds country!
He does seem to know his stuff.
He does seem to know his stuff.
I lost a Hughes cam and lifters to what Hughes described as poor lifter bore alignment of the cylinder block. I had it bushed and rebored on a Rotler machine (had trouble getting blueprint specs to use) and all is well for many years now. Hughes told me they believed the production fixtures that Chrysler was using were probably worn out but, the tolerances were acceptable for production cams and lifers. Not so with higher lift and stouter valve springs. That made sense to me. The further back in the block I went with lifter inspection, the worse the lifter damage.
Mike
Mike
Here's another video from this guy. Unbelievable! It looks like a Comp Cams box.
If you are installing a cam, get your dial calipers out and check every lobe and lifter. Send the crap parts back and raise a stink with the supplier. May be even send the manufacturer an e mail with photos.
Rebelrouser
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I lost a Huges cam several years ago, before all these issues with cam and lifter quality. When I got the cam and read the spring specs, I called Hughes and flat told them this cam will never live at these spring pressures, they assured me it would work just fine. Cam went flat in three passes on the track. After break in, with weak springs. Of course, all the excuses were used first one was not breaking it in right. I told him I was an engine instructor at a technical college, and I had 40 witnesses about the break-in because I did the engine in front of the class. So I sent the cam to Hughes they said all the surviving lobes and lifters had correct break-in markings. Never got a dime from Hughes. metal in the bearings, metal in the skirts of the pistons etc. Never bought another cam from Hughes, never bought another flat tappet cam for my race car. Today I almost will not use a flat tappet camshaft on a street engine, I tell my customers just buy a hydraulic roller and be done with it. OEM have not used flat tappet cams since the 1990's no need for oil with zinc in it, just drive and enjoy. I find you can get more lift with a shorter duration, makes a very good running street engine that way, lots of low end torque with decent idle vacuum.
Well said.
lewtot184
Well-Known Member
Hughes used to use Engle cams. I talked to Engle about Hughes spring pressures some years back and they thought the pressures were excessive. I like Engles and use them. But not with Hughes springs.
Like the Isky E4 in my lil' 273. It's a solid lifter stick just a bit over stock specs. They recommend a dual spring which I feel is overkill.
c.moo
Well-Known Member
Still don't understand that car manufactories used flat tappet cams for years and never had a lot of problems and they didn't have machine technology like we have today. To bad no one has a new old cam and lifters from back then , be interesting to check the cam and lifter machining and metal quality .
They machined them properly back then. Somewhere along the line the specs have been lost or as a cost saving measure, a different procedure is being used. My last flat tappet cam is my last one. I think hydraulic roller is where it's at.
Talked to him couple days ago. Very smart and responsive. I'm going to give him my money when it's cam time. Truly cares about us Mopar guys
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I'm curious about this whole thing.
I have flat tappet cams in 5 cars here. The red car is the only solid and the only one with a big cam. The only cams that I've seen die have been in the red car. I did wipe a 292/508 in a 360 in my FrankenDuster.
It makes me wonder if the answer to why do they fail is not the design but many other things all stacked together.
If a fairly stock 440, two 360s and the mild 383 I have can live with the flat tappet design, is the fault maybe likely due to higher spring pressures or poor manufacturing of the higher performance stuff?
The 440/495 has wiped 3 cams in 17 years. Two Comp Cams for starters...One crapped out in a month or so, the other took several months. The 3rd was the MP '528. It seemed fine for years but then went bad in short order...I may have traced the fault to improper oil.
As with all detective work, I look for common denominators....what factors existed with all failures that may have contributed.
3 cam failures, same block and heads. All three used the proper lube and underwent the correct break in procedure, followed by adding the Comp Cams break in supplement at each oil change. All 3 used correct valve springs. None ran low on oil or were overheated. The oil was only high zinc in the last year with the '528 but that oil was also high detergent....which effectively scrubbed the zinc from the surfaces as fast as it could be stuck to them.
The lifters all spun in the bores.
Of the 2 cams that I ran and didn't kill, one was the 292/509 and this Lunati Solid. Again, both had proper springs, break in and the Comp Cams supplement.
I've since stopped using the CC supplement based on advice from Dwayne Porter....he felt that it was better to use oil that is formulated with the proper additives already in it because supplements may either NOT mix well, not be compatible with the oil or be worthless and a waste of money.
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I've watched a lot of what that gentleman has posted on YT. Very informative (and I don't know anything
about any "accents" - sounds normal to me
).
My take on the whole cam/lifter thing? I'll never buy a cam or lifters (or most anything else of importance,
for that matter) that has been manufactured in China.
That simple, right or wrong.
about any "accents" - sounds normal to me
).My take on the whole cam/lifter thing? I'll never buy a cam or lifters (or most anything else of importance,
for that matter) that has been manufactured in China.
That simple, right or wrong.
(and I don't know anything
about any "accents" - sounds normal to me
And yet after having lived most of my life in California I still get asked about my speech patterns having spent my earliest childhood in Mississippi and Texas...
I'm 2 for 2 on solid tappet cams surviving. One from Schneider and one from Hughes. The Schneider was built and broke in by the machine shop for a 318 Poly build. The Hughes is in my 440 that I installed. I made sure the face was convex on each one, I made sure they all spun in their bores. I used good break in oil with outer springs only. My break in procedure was not ideal. That was 6 years ago and I'm still beating on it.
I don't know what the key variable is.
I don't know what the key variable is.
padam
Well-Known Member
That guy looks like flat tappet cams almost ruined his life.
Seriously, it seems like he has looked into every variable and still can’t put his finger on a single cause. I think someone above mentioned lifter bore misalignment, and that may be a contributing factor to why a specific engine may kill multiple cams (Kern.)
But if Powell can’t figure it out, with all of his knowledge and resources, it may be wise to just follow his advice and go roller.
Seriously, it seems like he has looked into every variable and still can’t put his finger on a single cause. I think someone above mentioned lifter bore misalignment, and that may be a contributing factor to why a specific engine may kill multiple cams (Kern.)
But if Powell can’t figure it out, with all of his knowledge and resources, it may be wise to just follow his advice and go roller.
c.moo
Well-Known Member
Machining probably was ok but not spot on back then , they made thousands of motors with lifter bore misalignment not right on plus other like cam bore and crank bore alignment etc. and they survive for many ,many miles . If the flat tappet cams and lifters isn't machined right nowadays wonder about the roller cams and tappets if they are machined right ? I heard they have problems too plus you got more variables , cam button , dist.gear and other parts that goes with roller cam set up Back then they made it work , today sort of .
ckessel
Well-Known Member
Watched it last night, interesting info. If that was an oe level issue, it would most likely get handled due to multiple warranty claims and costs to remedy. OE's are slow to react since they try to ignore or push it onto the customer/shop. Once the snowball starts gaining size, they pay attention because of the negative feedback. Witness 604/46re/48re trannies, CP4 injection pumps, 4.0 Jeep exhaust manifolds etc. Other OE's are not immune to this.
Since this is an aftermarket issue, the manufactures get a walk on warranty coverage. At parts stores, you're lucky just to have the part covered. But it's an uphill struggle to get the rest of the carnage replaced and labor times are not realistic IF they kick some back for that. There are most likely problems with lifter bores but it's hard to believe thats a problem when the cam/lifter carnage has only been happening for 10 or so years. Why weren't there wipeout problems of this magnitude prior to that?
Since this is an aftermarket issue, the manufactures get a walk on warranty coverage. At parts stores, you're lucky just to have the part covered. But it's an uphill struggle to get the rest of the carnage replaced and labor times are not realistic IF they kick some back for that. There are most likely problems with lifter bores but it's hard to believe thats a problem when the cam/lifter carnage has only been happening for 10 or so years. Why weren't there wipeout problems of this magnitude prior to that?
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