Swapping a Borgeson steering box in a 1970 Charger

[Kern Dog]

That sound you hear with the steering wheel at full left or full right is a belt squealing. I used to call it Killing seals because it sounded like you were swatting seals with a stick.
The pump gets to a point where it cannot provide enough assist and then the pump starts to sort of hiccup instead of working smoothly. The belt tries to spin the pulley but the pump itself stops, moves, stops and the belt slips, making the squealing sound.

 

[Darrah]

Mine is working fine. The box is tight to the K member too. I used new bolts with red Locktite.
The videos make it appear like the pump pressure is not consistent, like either the steering box demands rise and fall and the pump can't keep up or the demands remain consistent and the pump just drops pressure.

Yep, went through that. Pump was supplied by Peter and had one thin shim. I've actually had two pumps with this setup, both from Peter and both with one shim. First pump started groaning after a week, so Peter drop shipped me a new one. That one came with a broken cap/dipstick, with the pieces of cap/gasket all in the reservoir. He told me to just take the pieces out of the reservoir and not worry about it. Well, that pump would never build pressure. My guess is the pieces inside the reservoir damaged the pump. So I put the first pump back in.

This problem didn't start until about a month after I installed the whole setup. I was really hoping everything would work out, but it hasn't been a great experience. Not sure what I'll do going forward... my son's W150 and my W200 have taken priority at the moment.

 

[Darrah]

thanks for posting the videos. That sounds nothing like the loud sharp squeal my old Chevy made when it was low on fluid. Your sound reminds me of driving over a metal grate or a couple of aluminum pie tins. I'm hearing a metallic clack...clack-clack. Does not sound like a belt. If I was you, I would send those videos to Peter Bergman to get his opinion.
He's a member on here so maybe he'll see this (@BergmanAutoCraft)

I've read that some say a power steering pump going out can cause a rumble, others a squeal. Yours sounds different still.

Maybe the video doesn't convey the sound properly. It's the exact sound as when hitting full-lock, I guess I could've done that for comparison. It's 100% belt squeal. I've used a high speed camera (again, access to lots of cool tools due to my job). The pulley stopped momentarily when that sound occurs.

Peter is aware. Peter seems to be a great vendor for most. He drop shipped me the second pump immediately and was responsive... until I mentioned the hissing that I can't resolve, and now this problem. At that point I felt as though he was tired of my issues and wanted to move forward. I wouldn't steer anyone away from him, and I would buy other components from him, but I don't think he has any interest resolving this problem.

 

[OneWheelPeel]

Slight derailment:has anyone heard of using an electric pump, like a Volvo unit with one of these boxes? It came up recently in a YouTube vid from a former MT guy, Cotten.

 

[71RRHI]

Maybe the video doesn't convey the sound properly. It's the exact sound as when hitting full-lock, I guess I could've done that for comparison. It's 100% belt squeal. I've used a high speed camera (again, access to lots of cool tools due to my job). The pulley stopped momentarily when that sound occurs.

Peter is aware. Peter seems to be a great vendor for most. He drop shipped me the second pump immediately and was responsive... until I mentioned the hissing that I can't resolve, and now this problem. At that point I felt as though he was tired of my issues and wanted to move forward. I wouldn't steer anyone away from him, and I would buy other components from him, but I don't think he has any interest resolving this problem.

The last video you posted sounds just like mine. I bought mine as a complete kit from Peter at BAC. I did have a problem with the pump. When I did the initial install. I had almost no power assist, this was while trying to bleed the system with the front tires off the ground and turning the wheel lock to lock about 25 times. Called Peter and he walked me through a few things to check. While on the phone he had try and bleed the system again but still no power assist. I remember he asked me to check the fluid level, when I pulled the cap, the little dipstick thing was all melted. He sent me out a new pump right away. Great customer service. Installed the new pump, bleed the system and all has been good since until about six months ago. I'm not blaming Peter or BAC. I would order again from him. After typing this I just realized about a year ago I ordered a complete Borgeson kit from him for my Challenger project, still sitting here new in the box. Since I already changed the belt, I'm thinking I'm going to use the pump from the new kit and see if that corrects the problem.

 

[Kern Dog]

I wouldn't be against that if they put out enough pressure. Of course when you start making changes like that, you need a more powerful alternator, maybe wiring modifications, etc.
I tried running hydroboost in 2022 and it was a failure. I read from people that advised against it with the reasoning being if I lost the power steering belt, I'd lose both steering assist and brake assist. If you had an electric steering booster, if your alternator fails or a belt slips off, there goes steering assist. I guess tossing belts isn't that likely though. One could find drawbacks in anything if you look hard enough.

 

[Kern Dog]

The last video you posted sounds just like mine. I bought mine as a complete kit from Peter at BAC. I did have a problem with the pump. When I did the initial install. I had almost no power assist, this was while trying to bleed the system with the front tires off the ground and turning the wheel lock to lock about 25 times. Called Peter and he walked me through a few things to check. While on the phone he had try and bleed the system again but still no power assist. I remember he asked me to check the fluid level, when I pulled the cap, the little dipstick thing was all melted. He sent me out a new pump right away. Great customer service. Installed the new pump, bleed the system and all has been good since until about six months ago. I'm not blaming Peter or BAC. I would order again from him. After typing this I just realized about a year ago I ordered a complete Borgeson kit from him for my Challenger project, still sitting here new in the box. Since I already changed the belt, I'm thinking I'm going to use the pump from the new kit and see if that corrects the problem.

When a vendor sells products that they have not built themselves, it isn't right to blame THEM if the part fails unless they knew that they were selling defective components. If the vendor responds and tries to help, it shows that they are at least trying to honor the deal and want you to be happy with the product and service. These people know how fast that bad word of mouth can spread and that will affect their business.

 

[71RRHI]

Like I said I'm not blaming Peter or BAC. His customer service is excellent. Also my steering setup was installed in 2016, and has been working great for 9 years. So even if the the pump is bad I would recommend this setup over stock steering box any day.

 

[Mopar Hunter]

I’m getting ready to install the Borgeson box in my car. I installed one in my friends car a while ago, there’s no noise whatsoever and it steers perfect. He bought his at the same time he bought mine for the labor to install his. These were purchased in 2022 I believe.

 

[Darrah]

After typing this I just realized about a year ago I ordered a complete Borgeson kit from him for my Challenger project, still sitting here new in the box. Since I already changed the belt, I'm thinking I'm going to use the pump from the new kit and see if that corrects the problem.

Let me know if the pump fixes it. At least it's a relatively cheap and easy solution compared to a new box.

 

[OneWheelPeel]

I wouldn't be against that if they put out enough pressure. Of course when you start making changes like that, you need a more powerful alternator, maybe wiring modifications, etc.
I tried running hydroboost in 2022 and it was a failure. I read from people that advised against it with the reasoning being if I lost the power steering belt, I'd lose both steering assist and brake assist. If you had an electric steering booster, if your alternator fails or a belt slips off, there goes steering assist. I guess tossing belts isn't that likely though. One could find drawbacks in anything if you look hard enough.

Yeah, its just attractive to me because I don't want to play with finding everything to set up the pullies on a manual steer car and even more, I really love how when I pop the hood I just see the engine. Decisions decisions.
I'm not worried about failure mode as long as it doesn't lock up, I've never had a PS belt let go, but I've had stalls which kills the PS assist all the same.
Ok thats a bit of a lie, the supercharger kit caused an issue with the PS belt on my Miata, but the car was so light it didn't really matter.

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

The last video you posted sounds just like mine. I bought mine as a complete kit from Peter at BAC. I did have a problem with the pump. When I did the initial install. I had almost no power assist, this was while trying to bleed the system with the front tires off the ground and turning the wheel lock to lock about 25 times. Called Peter and he walked me through a few things to check. While on the phone he had try and bleed the system again but still no power assist. I remember he asked me to check the fluid level, when I pulled the cap, the little dipstick thing was all melted. He sent me out a new pump right away. Great customer service. Installed the new pump, bleed the system and all has been good since until about six months ago. I'm not blaming Peter or BAC. I would order again from him. After typing this I just realized about a year ago I ordered a complete Borgeson kit from him for my Challenger project, still sitting here new in the box. Since I already changed the belt, I'm thinking I'm going to use the pump from the new kit and see if that corrects the problem.

little dipstick thing "all melted"?? How does that happen? The pump got so hot that the plastic dipstick actually melted?
Reading multiple stories here about failed pumps sourced through Bergman is not giving me much confidence in installing the pump that's en route to me. I might need to source an OEM junkyard modified box from Kern Industries (@Kern Dog)

When all is said and done, if I swap in a new pump and get it to work and something in this setup fails again in less than 1000 miles, that will really blow and I'll be very disappointed because that would mean I'll need to go back to the Firm Feel setup with generally good steering but with that annoying dead spot from 11 to 1 o'clock...

 

[icetech]

little dipstick thing "all melted"?? How does that happen? The pump got so hot that the plastic dipstick actually melted?
Reading multiple stories here about failed pumps sourced through Bergman is not giving me much confidence in installing the pump that's en route to me. I might need to source an OEM junkyard modified box from Kern Industries (@Kern Dog)

When all is said and done, if I swap in a new pump and get it to work and something in this setup fails again in less than 1000 miles, that will really blow and I'll be very disappointed because that would mean I'll need to go back to the Firm Feel setup with generally good steering but with that annoying dead spot from 11 to 1 o'clock...

just my 2 cents.. i ran the bergman setup all year without any issues... pump has been fine

P.S. other than figuring out the spacers for the mount a little diagram woulda helped.. cause i r stupid

 

[71RRHI]

little dipstick thing "all melted"?? How does that happen? The pump got so hot that the plastic dipstick actually melted?
Reading multiple stories here about failed pumps sourced through Bergman is not giving me much confidence in installing the pump that's en route to me. I might need to source an OEM junkyard modified box from Kern Industries (@Kern Dog)

When all is said and done, if I swap in a new pump and get it to work and something in this setup fails again in less than 1000 miles, that will really blow and I'll be very disappointed because that would mean I'll need to go back to the Firm Feel setup with generally good steering but with that annoying dead spot from 11 to 1 o'clock...

I can only imagine since there was no power assist, there was no fluid moving. Fluid must of gotten really hot. Installed replacement pump, and everything worked great for 9 years (over 10,000 miles). The system still works great, just an intermittent squel. More of a nuisance than anything.