541 street strip motor, TF 270 heads, Weiand P3690982 cross ram or???

Racers Hangout

  1. biomedtechguy

    biomedtechguy Accelerati Rapidus Maximus FBBO Gold Member

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    Yeah, that damn thing had kept me up at night, dreaming about it.
    I still could buy one that looks absolutely perfect, and already has the mods done.
    BUT
    I've left that behind because I love the Air Grabber, and having the Air Grabber setup is more important to me than having a better performing intake manifold.
    That alone should help y'all see that I'm not looking to piss money away that I honestly don't have and have to scrape for, but at the same time what I have decided on is important to me, like the progression of the decision making process that brought me to an aluminum aftermarket block: Pushing the upper limit of a factory block, finding someone I can trust to sonic test a half dozen blocks and pick the best one for me?? Even then, I want the peace of mind that I'm not going to split a block because I'm pushing it every time I floor it. So that leaves the aftermarket, and when a Bulldog iron block adds 100 pounds compared to a factory block, what is another $1,400 to go aluminum? Well worth it to me, and there are bragging rights and "ooh-ahh"s that happen when you pop the hood and there's an all aluminum block in my 50 year old car.
     
  2. Hemirunner

    Hemirunner Well-Known Member

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    I think the analogy with the Hellcats was appropriate... especially since I own a 6 speed Hellcat... get rid of the manual if you wanna go fast. You’re leaving sooooo much on the table trying to race that setup. Nines are entirely off the table with that stick... just sayin and I won’t mention it again. :lol:
     
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    • vintage chromoly

      vintage chromoly FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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      In my opinion, (not busting your balls) you really need to find someone who is willing to let you drive a 650 / 700 HP car.
      You may be star struck / jaded by crazy numbers thrown around on the net and in magazines.

      That’s a ton of power for a manual shift street / strip car.
      A real handful, if you’re not accustomed to that kind of power.

      For reference, I have a small block ford (347) drag car that runs 11.70’s @ 113 and makes 300 HP at the rear wheels. Pretty mild by modern race car standards, but it’s just a fun toy I’ve had since I bought it New almost 30 years ago.

      I’ve taken other car guys for a spin and it will scare the shit out of you with that 300 RWHP. Leaving on the trans brake at 5,500 RPM, it will throw you back and forth and pin you in your seat. Guys ask what the HP is and cannot believe it’s only 300 at the wheels.

      Point being, please drive a big power car before you decide you need / want 650ish HP.
       
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      • biomedtechguy

        biomedtechguy Accelerati Rapidus Maximus FBBO Gold Member

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        Agreed. That is a question that a couple of people have answered as best as they could, but yeah, if I drove one at least I'd know what was what.
        I'm guessing 300 w/automatic in the Ford you had was close to 400 at the flywheel. 600HP is 50% more power than you had.
        Then again, I see a lot of cars roll up at these local shows, and Carlisle, and the race track that are doing 600 HP all day.
        There's forum members with 6XX HP 6bbl stroker motors.
         
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        • bwheeler051

          bwheeler051 Well-Known Member

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          Yes 2 x 4 edelbrock 750 carbs. I run Nostalgia super stock. I ran it out of the box for 4 years on a 499 motor. Since then, I have worked with plenum spacers to raise the lid. I have used different air dams or fillers. It has been worth a little ET but I have found a combination that yielded a little more consistency which is what I was after since we index race. I think a modman with a 6pack top would be fine on your combination.
           
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          • IQ52

            IQ52 Well-Known Member

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            Has it been determined which is the most simple bolt on combination (without modifications) and what horsepower it will make? It took me 10 seconds to find this one.....RPM heads, flat tappet cam, 657.5 HP @ 5,500 rpm and 698.8 TQ @ 4,300 rpm.

             
            Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
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            • IQ52

              IQ52 Well-Known Member

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              • IQ52

                IQ52 Well-Known Member

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                Let's not forget this one.........................

                 
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                • IQ52

                  IQ52 Well-Known Member

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                  • Hemirunner

                    Hemirunner Well-Known Member

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                    • IQ52

                      IQ52 Well-Known Member

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                      Yep, dry flow direct port injection.

                      NO WAIT! Let's spend every dime Steve has got and Hogan can build him a custom 6-bbl intake manifold.

                      https://www.hogansracingmanifolds.com/custom-intake-manifolds-2/chrysler-custom-intake-manifolds/

                      Yes you can make horsepower with the Modman intake manifold. But is it the best dollar value for the desired look and results? We held a land speed record at Bonneville (for 3 days) in 1959 with a 361ci B engine using a Weiand Drag Star intake......not what I would suggest as the best manifold available today. When I first looked at the Modman with carburetors on it, the Weiand Drag Star is the first thing that came to mind.
                       
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                      • IQ52

                        IQ52 Well-Known Member

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                        • IQ52

                          IQ52 Well-Known Member

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                          Thread titled: Recipe for 700hp six pack 440 or bigger-

                          https://board.moparts.org/ubbthread...-recipe-for-700hp-six-pack-440-or-bigger.html

                          And let me quote from that thread a wise gentleman............

                          IMO, you're going about it wrong....... or rather, you're focusing on the wrong parts, and an arbitrary hp number instead of the application.

                          Figure out the things that are the highest priority for the finished product(like a 6-bbl that fits under the stock hood), what gears, converter, etc you'd like to use in the car....... then build the motor around those things that are a "given"....... and it will just make what it makes.

                          Unless it's a race car that requires a certain amount of power to be competitive in a particular class, or to reach a performance target...... then it's just a number.
                          For street cars, I find it makes more sense to build the motor so it works well how it's being used "most" of the time....... and if that means you give up 20, 30, 50hp of peak power..... it's not really a big deal.
                          Basically, for a given engine size, the TQ won't really change that much even if the top end HP is down 25-50hp........besides.........mostly what you feel in the seat of your pants when driving around on the road, is the TQ.

                          End quote. (the bold letters are mine, the words are his)
                           
                          Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
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                          • Hemirunner

                            Hemirunner Well-Known Member

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                            I’ve seen builds turn different directions based on a sudden windfall of money, a sudden “great deal” (which usually isn’t) and a general lack of a plan. This one seems to suffer from “analysis paralysis” as we can’t seem to firm up answers to those questions. At least we know the manual transmission is staying!! Haha
                             
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                            • biomedtechguy

                              biomedtechguy Accelerati Rapidus Maximus FBBO Gold Member

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                              Well Jim, it took a while to hear from you (again), and I was a little scared :wetting:that you might beat up on me, :soapbox: but I've got some reading to do.
                              I'll say this, THIS makes a lot of sense:
                              Thanks again guys!
                              :thumbsup:

                              :lowdown:

                              :luvplace::thankyou:
                               
                            • biomedtechguy

                              biomedtechguy Accelerati Rapidus Maximus FBBO Gold Member

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                              A few observations from the links that my friend IQ52 provided:
                              I have read a couple of different people express concerns about the strength of the factory RB block in the horsepower range they have or want to have. I have noted, again, that a lot of people talk about the 400B block having a lower deck height to aid clearance of the carbs and intake to the hood. (I'm not interested in a B block, but the comments and concerns, along with comments about the weight of aftermarket iron blocks vs aluminum, how the iron blocks ADD weight over the factory block, and the aluminum block significantly reduces weight over the front end and because the aluminum block is much lighter, it aids weight transfer to the rear wheels). I see a LOT of people using the dual plane Edelbrock/Chrysler aluminum 6bbl intake like I have, even with higher RPMs (up to 7k) AND stroker motors.
                              The 2 main reasons why I was looking for a single plane 3x2 compatible intake is flow, so as to not restrict the performance of a 540 cu in motor, and I had suggested I may want to be able to have a 150 shot spray plate nitrous system available as an "oh shit" button if I'm all in, hooked up and rolling down the 1320, and find myself falling behind, so I could maybe turn a L into a W. Now I think that maybe added power may push me into breakage, but Im leaving the door open to the possibility of having that available, but it seems like the consensus is that nitrous + dual plane intake is a recipe for disaster?
                              Hughes seems to really be on top of making the 6bbl work, and porting the Edelbrock/Chrysler aluminum 6bbl intake to maximize its performance capabilities.
                              I will say that one of the posts I read emphasized that if a car is 70% street use, 30% track use, a dual plane is the best choice. Even at an even split use at 50/50 street/strip, they say that the single plane is a tough choice. Drivability is super important to me, and my track use percentage is abysmal, but that's mainly because of my traction problems and the pile of parts, equipment, and systems I have that need to be installed, many (like my front suspension system and 4 wheel disc brakes) that are SAFETY RELATED.
                              Once I get the brakes and front suspension systems installed, and the line lock is part of that, I may take another few trips down the track to check out the line lock, and any adjustments to the front suspension (I have 18 way adjustable Viking front shocks that I have yet to try tweaking for better front end lift and weight transfer) I expect to disconnect the front sway bar at the track so as to not have it prevent front suspension travel.
                              The defining moment right now that will have me making way more track trips on Test and Tune night is the rear suspension (Calvert split mono leaf springs, AFTCO or Calvert sliders, Assassin traction bars, and since I have them on the front I'll get Viking double adjustable shocks for the rear) and hydraulic T.O. bearing (already purchased the Hydramax) with the HitMaster launch control system. Chrome molly driveshaft, and possibly a dual disc clutch setup if the manufacturer or I find my current street/strip clutch isn't up to handling the slippage of the HitMaster.
                              So I've got a LOT to do before a build happens, but I want to make progress on a build or I'm going to die having never got it done.
                               
                            • biomedtechguy

                              biomedtechguy Accelerati Rapidus Maximus FBBO Gold Member

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                              Reading more of the linked threads, one of them is about the benefits of a wideband O2 system.
                              I can't recall anyone pointing me in that direction, but I decided over a year ago to get one, and many on this forum recommended Innovate Motorsports.
                              I got the wideband dual O2 sensor system and it has really been an eye opener. I have some adjustments to make on the A/F ratio in different stages of my driving experience. I think I'm going to do some data logging and go from there.
                              I guess I was "thinking right" when I decided to add that tool to my car for tuning purposes.
                               
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                              • 440rb

                                440rb Well-Known Member

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                                You were dead right, have a read of this, just happen to come across it>

                                When tuning at the track without an O2 (or even with an O2), most everyone knows to start with the timing conservative, jet for maximum trap speed and then creep timing in until trap speed stops going up......
                                From past experience, I roughly know what WOT numbers to to shoot for so that's where I get it to before I ever go to the track..........
                                I was tuning a 6 pack last week.....actual 10.5 to 1 compression.....stock stroke 440.....exhaust manifolds........Dwayne Porter small hydraulic cam........brand new carbs that came with 62 jets in the center carb and a 6.5 power valve........
                                The VERY FIRST THING to do when doing any carb tuning is to find out what your motor wants for initial timing and curve the distributor.........This motor wanted 27* at idle and I set it up to have 36 total, all in by 3,000 and the timing doesn't start advancing until 1,000.......
                                Initially, I'd set all 6 idle mixture screws at 3/4 turn out.......which put the idle mixture in the low 12's..........
                                At cruise, it showed the A/F in the high 12's, which is a little richer than I thought this motor needed to be.........
                                At WOT A/F was in the low 11's with the stock metering plates............which is about 1.5 points richer than I where I thought it should be...........
                                While cruising.......when I slightly push on the pedal to speed up, the A/F went to mid 15's for a split second and then the Power Valve would open and richen it up into the low 13 to 1 range...........
                                When the end carbs would open while going WOT at low RPM, it had a pretty large bog.........
                                So, I busted all the carbs apart.........I put 60 jets in the center carb to lean it out a little at cruise......installed 85 jets into the end carbs for a starting point........installed a 10.5 Power Valve to get it to richen up sooner when slightly accelerating.........and went two spring steps stiffer on the secondaries to keep it from bogging.......
                                I put it all together and when I started it, fuel was gushing out of the vent of the front carb......so I pulled the needle and seat to check for trash and there wasn't any.....I put it back in and eye-balled about how much it had been sticking up past the top of the float bowl and locked it down.......I pulled the float bowl off and found that there were little marks on the floats where it had hit the jets I'd installed into the metering plates I'd modified to hold jets, so the jets had been holding the float down.......
                                I pulled the flat washers out from between the jets and plates to move the jets away from the float (I'd put those washers between the jet and metering plate because when the jet is screwed in, there isn't much room between the jet and the metering plate gasket)........
                                I button it all up and go for a test drive......Cruise A/F was 10.5 to 1.........the WOT bog was gone........it still had a small lean spike to about 14.0 to 1 when slightly accelerating but I couldn't feel it.......and WOT was now in the low 12's/high 11's.............
                                OK........I'd gone 2 jets smaller on the primaries and it's WAY richer now........and I've put the highest PV they make in it and it's still got a slight lean spike.........
                                I get back to the shop and check the float level on that front carb, which I should have done before I left [​IMG] ......I had to lower it a 1/4 turn to get it to where it needed to be........
                                I drive it again and the cruise was in the low 13's and the stumble from slightly accelerating is worse............
                                SO A 1/4 TURN ON THE FRONT FLOAT BOWL CHANGED THE CRUISE A/F FROM MID 10'S TO LOW 13'S [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] ..........Think about that [​IMG] .........How would you guys that tune without one know that???? [​IMG]
                                To fix the lean spike while slightly accelerating, I know it needs the end carbs leaned out and the center carb richened up so the cruise A/F stays the same.......and as some people know, the idle mixture screws have a significant effect on cruise A/F, especially when you have 6 idle mixture screws....... [​IMG]
                                So, I set all 6 idle mixture screws to about 5/8 of a turn out........change the primary jets from 60's to 65's........and go for a test drive.......Cruise is in the low 13's......WOT went from high 11's/low 12's to mid to high 12's and I didn't even change the secondary jets!!!.....and that's because I'd screwed all 6 idle mixture screws in about an 1/8 of a turn.... [​IMG] The slight lean spike is gone because the center carb is jetted up......and that's my stopping point........The car runs as smooth as glass......starts and idles with just a bump of the key........will blow the tires off from an idle while going WOT...no lean surges......no stumbles........you can't even feel when the end carbs open because it's so smooth...... [​IMG]
                                Now, to tune it to it's maximum, I need to go to the track and jet the end carbs for maximum MPH.....or go to a chassis dyno and jet the end carbs for maximum HP..... [​IMG] [​IMG]
                                There is absolutely NO WAY you could figure all that out without an O2 sensor........I hope this helps guys understand the importance of using one.


                                Good luck with your 6pk:D
                                 
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                                • BSB67

                                  BSB67 FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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                                  I remember when Wayne wrote that up. Good stuff. Way better than all the other write-ups that I see commonly referenced.
                                   
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                                  • Dodge 330

                                    Dodge 330 Well-Known Member

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                                    Even with an automatic in a street car, things can happen fast. I've sprayed 200 on top of 600 and the 1-2 shift is lightning fast. I have eased my way into this combo coming from a mild 440 to a 440 with good cam and headers to 505 with good heads and now some nitrous.

                                    My car is capable of 2.1 0-60 mph. That bests almost every supercar out there on the streets. It isn't for amateurs or the faint of heart!
                                     
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