Help deciding on Street/Strip torsion bar size

[2quick]

So I know this has probably been brought up many times before but I need help deciding on a torsion bar size for my 66 Satellite. I know the basics of bars size and there intended purposes, But basically I want some feed back on real world setups that would be a good compromise for a fast street car that's going to see track time maybe 5 times a year. So here is what I have:

Chassis:

Complete US CAR TOOL Chassis stiffing package.
New XHD mopar performance rear spring
QA1 crossmember
Boxed stock LCA's
QA1 UCA's
QA1 Dynamic strut rods
Disc brakes (Stock Mopar) front
Borgeson Quick ratio Steering box
KYB Shock (Possibly going to QA1 adjustable)
Still need Tires and wheels but will be drag radial of some kind

Motor: 650ish

• Stock Stroke 440 .30 over
• Stock LY Rods Resized w/ARP bolts
• Pistons TRW Forged Flat Top 10.5-1
• Professional Products Damper
• ARP Main Studs
• Comp Solid Roller
Duration - .278 in. / .281 ex. @ .050
Lift - .681 in. / .660 ex.
Lobe Separation – 108
• INDY 440-1 Heads (Professionally Ported) Approximately 330cc intake volume
• INDY Roller Rockers (Offset) 1.5 ratio
• ARP Head Studs
• Indy 440-2 Intake (4500 flange)
• 2 1/8 ” TTI stepped Headers


Trans:

Proformance 727 (full Auto)
9 1/2" Dynamic Converter 4200 stall

Rear:

Not yet decided?


I would like good street manners of the bigger bar .96 or 1.03 but not sure that going to turn the numbers!

So question in mind really is is anyone running High 10's with a big bar?

 

[super-bee_ski]

For Street/strip you would want the smaller diameter torsion bars.

Check out t this 2009 B-bodies thread: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...LnLpeGyRZXnMtuvMXsxlng&bvm=bv.111396085,d.cGc

The original 63 Max wedge cars ran the small diameter bars.

-For Road Racing, you want a "Stiff" torsion bar, such as a .100"
-For daily driving: .090" or .096"
-For street/strip in the 1960's (Strip) they used the lightweight .088"


From a URL (included)
http://www.bigblockdart.com/forum/forum.php?

-Re: torsion bar size?
Current MP bars:
5249148 .810" diameter-drag race applications 298.50
5249149 .870" diameter-restoration for 340 cars, improved slant 6, 273 and 318 handling. 298.00
5249150 .890" diameter resto, for 383 cars, improved "A" engine handling 298.00
5249151 .920" diameter- performance handling,solo racing. 298.00
5249154 1.090" diameter-1/4 or 1/2 mile circle track racing. 148.50

Current Firm Feel bars:
.820 82 Drag Racing $295
.880 115 Street/Strip $285
.940 155 Stock HP/Police $285
1.00 195 HD/Street $285
1.06 252 HD/Race $300
1.12 300 Race $300
1.18 370 Race $325



*There is plenty written about it.
**As Budnicks says: "Fill your library before you fill your garage"

Do your research.

 

[2quick]

Like I said, I fully understand the theory of torsion bar selection. I also understand I'm somewhat of the non conformist trying to reap the befits of good street manners (maybe even better than stock) and ultimately laying down some decent 60' times. I know a small bar would best for a race car. I know a 1.0+ bar would be best for a pro touring / corner carving car. I'm really trying to hear from guys that are running the .96 bars on their Max effort street cars and still turning good numbers and also how they are doing it? Not looking for every last .100th of a second just a good compromise. With the quick ratio Borgeson box it would be kinda nice not to make it handle horribly (by going wit the small bar) on purpose.

 

[69 GTX]

I'm going to run /6 bars. If your engine has alum heads, the borgsen steering, alum water pump, alum intake, & maybe a battery relocation your probably getting close to small block weight anyway. And also if your like me the score board is more important than the street manners anyway. Weight transfer is huge, specifically with dot type tires. Just my 2 cents worth. I have run the 6 bars on the street before and they weren't that bad.

 

[2quick]

By 6 you mean .96?

Anyone know what a stock 318 Poly bar is? I'm sure a poly is heavier than the LA 318, but not sure the bars are different. Reason I'm asking is with the stock bars the ride was well within reasonable, but do to the fact that they are 50 years old I want to replace.

I'm placing the order for something by end of the day just don't know what yet.

 

[super-bee_ski]

2quick
I'm just trying to show you what's out there and what "the" Strip guys run.
After all: Street/Strip is not "Cruising"
As you say: You know the theory.

Then why RUN a STIFF set of Bars?

Good Luck with your decision.

 

[lewtot184]

a .92 bar with a good 1 1/8" sway bar handles fairly good. take the sway bar off for strip use.

 

[2quick]

2quick
I'm just trying to show you what's out there and what "the" Strip guys run.
After all: Street/Strip is not "Cruising"
As you say: You know the theory.

Then why RUN a STIFF set of Bars?

Good Luck with your decision.

By the way your link is for a steering wheel resto shop!

- - - Updated - - -

a .92 bar with a good 1 1/8" sway bar handles fairly good. take the sway bar off for strip use.

So that 1 for the .92

 

[69clone]

By 6 you mean .96?

Anyone know what a stock 318 Poly bar is? I'm sure a poly is heavier than the LA 318, but not sure the bars are different. Reason I'm asking is with the stock bars the ride was well within reasonable, but do to the fact that they are 50 years old I want to replace.

I'm placing the order for something by end of the day just don't know what yet.

He means six cylinder torsion bars.
My builds similar to yours just a stroker and less cam. I am planning on running .88 bars I don't see it being a problem on the street as I've dropped a lot of weight off the front with all the aluminum and battery going in the trunk.

 

[super-bee_ski]

Did you read the article?
I surely did.

HEY:
2quick...

Good luck!

 

[2quick]

1 for .92
1 for .88

- - - Updated - - -

For Street/strip you would want the smaller diameter torsion bars.

Check out t this 2009 B-bodies thread: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...LnLpeGyRZXnMtuvMXsxlng&bvm=bv.111396085,d.cGc

The original 63 Max wedge cars ran the small diameter bars.

-For Road Racing, you want a "Stiff" torsion bar, such as a .100"
-For daily driving: .090" or .096"
-For street/strip in the 1960's (Strip) they used the lightweight .088"


From a URL (included)
http://www.bigblockdart.com/forum/forum.php?

-Re: torsion bar size?
Current MP bars:
5249148 .810" diameter-drag race applications 298.50
5249149 .870" diameter-restoration for 340 cars, improved slant 6, 273 and 318 handling. 298.00
5249150 .890" diameter resto, for 383 cars, improved "A" engine handling 298.00
5249151 .920" diameter- performance handling,solo racing. 298.00
5249154 1.090" diameter-1/4 or 1/2 mile circle track racing. 148.50

Current Firm Feel bars:
.820 82 Drag Racing $295
.880 115 Street/Strip $285
.940 155 Stock HP/Police $285
1.00 195 HD/Street $285
1.06 252 HD/Race $300
1.12 300 Race $300
1.18 370 Race $325



*There is plenty written about it.
**As Budnicks says: "Fill your library before you fill your garage"

Do your research.

Mybe this is the way to go!

.880 115 Street/Strip $285

 

[mmissile]

Good shocks are a large part of the equation.

 

[Hemirunner]

Good shocks are a large part of the equation.

I think double adjustables are the way to go and the OP will need some sort of a traction bar or caltrac to keep the rear in check. I don't see why the bigger bar couldn't be made to work, not ideal, but useable. Just take the sway bar off each time you go.

 

[lewtot184]

.88 is the standard v8 bar. .90 used to be the heavy duty bar. .92, hemi and 440, seems to have superseded the .90. i run .92 with a firm feel 1 1/8" bar in my 65 coronet and handling is better than a .92 with a 15/16" bar in my 69 r/t. years back i raced a little with a .92 and 15/16" bar. removing the sway bar makes a big difference in drag racing no matter the torsion bar size. i've never raced the big bar and truth is i'll never go to the track again. shocks and pinion snubber do play a part also.

 

[Budnicks]

I like the B-Body 68 RR 383 41" torsion bars HD 0.90" for street driving with a big block,
I also have allot of fiberglass, 6bbl A12 hood, FG bumpers & allot of aluminum pieces,
heads, intake, water pump, rad. etc. too, with battery in the rear etc....
I ran them pretty loose/backed off {lack of a better term}
with the car pretty damn low, with 1-3/8" front & 1" rear sway bars too...
I have a 7" deep 7 qt. Milodon oil pan too & I don't want to bottom out
everywhere either...

My old car a street/strip beast 68 RR very similar to the car I have now,
she ran 8.58 @ 156 1/4 mile with the bigger 0.90" bars, it handled pretty well too,
all things considered...LOL
I'd disconnect the sway bars at the track, for better weight transfer &
freeing up the front suspension travel upwards especially...

IMO really depend how freed up the suspension travel &
what suspension parts are being used...
{like what k-member, or using tubular upper & lower control arms & adjust shocks etc.,
mine have all of them, it makes a difference}

IMO I tried the 1" bars & I didn't like the ride quality at all,
but it was probably livable, if I didn't live in the sticks,
with rough pot holed curvy roads...

The std. 273-318-383 0.88" bars would be fine probably too

I've tried the lessor 0.86" bars but didn't like the ride quality
I had to raise the front too much for my taste, to keep from bottoming out everywhere...
IMO there's really not best of both worlds, just a compromise one way or other,
bigger bars are better for handling & street driving
while the lessor/smaller bars are better for weight transfer drag racing,
you could, like someone else said, use a smaller bar with good adj. shocks
& a good sway bar & get a decent but not ideal compromise/happy medium...

Depend on what all you are willing to go thru & put up with,
what I may consider unreasonable, unworkable, just may be OK with you,
I live in the sticks & drive in some rough/windy roads too,
I prefer the slightly bigger better handling bars...

I bar doesn't fit all, you need to weight the pros & cons for yourself,
your specific combo, what works for me & my combo may not
be ideal for yours either...

Good Luck

 

[383man]

All I can tell you I run the stock 383 torsion bars that came in my 63. And they work great for me on my street/strip 63 Sport Fury. I am not sure of the size but whatever they used on a 383 back in 1963 is what I am using. I do use the Comp Engineering 3 way shocks up front also and the car handles fine and launches fine at the track. Ron

 

[Mike Gaines]

Maybe I should have, but I never worried about my front Torsion bar size.
I use my car primarily for Drag Racing but it is street licensed and insured with Hagerty and I do drive it to the Hot Dog stand and some car shows but mainly drag racing.
I have the following:
Moroso Front Runner Tires
90/10 Cal Trac Front Shocks
Complete Cal Trac Rear Setup...Cal Trac Bars/Cal Trac Mono Leaf Springs/Cal Trac 9 way Adj RR shocks.
MT 28x13.50x15 M/T DOT Bias Ply Street Slicks (11.25" tread width)
Cal Trac told me to make the "traction system" all come together that I needed 2 things setup correctly with all my parts:
1) With the rear shocks not yet installed on the car 2 guys ought to be able to push up and down on the rear bumper and almost be able to "bounce" the car like a basketball, meaning the shackles had to NOT be binding.
2) I needed a minimum of 5" front wheel travel (measured by putting a yardstick up next to the front fender lip and then jacking the car up on the k-member and having the front end "lift" 5" before the front tire came off the ground.
I did this by rebuilding my front end with all new parts and then actually "loosening" the torsion bars so the car actually sagged down about as far as it would go and still not rub the front tires when turning. (You can see the front end travel in the picture of the car launching off the line)
I DID ALL OF THE ABOVE...and first outing when I launched the car off the starting line it pulled BOTH front tires about 6" off the ground for about 10 feet...and this is with only a 505" with only 600HP...not a real monster motor. It does 1.55 60 foot times right now. I hope to get it into the mid 1.40's with my new Edelbrock Single Plane Victor 440 and new 1050 Dominator and lots more tuning in re: to jetting/timing/launch RPM and RR Tire Pressure.
I rides kinda crappy on the street but I dont really care. It does what I want...which is to GET TRACTION.
All this is for your consideration when putting your suspension together.

- - - Updated - - -

Ron, I love the way your 63 launches. It is a real animal.

- - - Updated - - -

 

[383man]

View attachment 301610Maybe I should have, but I never worried about my front Torsion bar size.
I use my car primarily for Drag Racing but it is street licensed and insured with Hagerty and I do drive it to the Hot Dog stand and some car shows but mainly drag racing.
I have the following:
Moroso Front Runner Tires
90/10 Cal Trac Front Shocks
Complete Cal Trac Rear Setup...Cal Trac Bars/Cal Trac Mono Leaf Springs/Cal Trac 9 way Adj RR shocks.
MT 28x13.50x15 M/T DOT Bias Ply Street Slicks (11.25" tread width)
Cal Trac told me to make the "traction system" all come together that I needed 2 things setup correctly with all my parts:
1) With the rear shocks not yet installed on the car 2 guys ought to be able to push up and down on the rear bumper and almost be able to "bounce" the car like a basketball, meaning the shackles had to NOT be binding.
2) I needed a minimum of 5" front wheel travel (measured by putting a yardstick up next to the front fender lip and then jacking the car up on the k-member and having the front end "lift" 5" before the front tire came off the ground.
I did this by rebuilding my front end with all new parts and then actually "loosening" the torsion bars so the car actually sagged down about as far as it would go and still not rub the front tires when turning. (You can see the front end travel in the picture of the car launching off the line)
I DID ALL OF THE ABOVE...and first outing when I launched the car off the starting line it pulled BOTH front tires about 6" off the ground for about 10 feet...and this is with only a 505" with only 600HP...not a real monster motor. It does 1.55 60 foot times right now. I hope to get it into the mid 1.40's with my new Edelbrock Single Plane Victor 440 and new 1050 Dominator and lots more tuning in re: to jetting/timing/launch RPM and RR Tire Pressure.
I rides kinda crappy on the street but I dont really care. It does what I want...which is to GET TRACTION.
All this is for your consideration when putting your suspension together.

- - - Updated - - -

Ron, I love the way your 63 launches. It is a real animal.

- - - Updated - - -

Thank you Mike. Ron

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

From your build description, it seems you have more pro-touring components than drag race components and that's reflected in your 5 X track per year. Sounds just like my car. With that said, my car is a 3800-lb 1968 Plymouth Satellite. I've driven it with all the bolt-on suspension goodies for handling you can think of with the following T-bar sizes:

.088
.092
1.00

I've also driven a friends '68 Barracuda convertible with small block and 1.00 inch bars.

It really depends on your shocks as well as your vehicle stance and overall tire heights front vs back IMHO. For me with a slight 1/2" - 1" rake, the .088" bars that came with my stock 318 were too small and soft. I upgraded to the .092's and they were Ok with the small block, but borderline with the big block. I then upgraded to the 1.00" bars. Just about perfect for me. If I did it again I would probably go with .096" bars and definitely not bigger than 1.00". (Remember, every .004" increase in T-bar diameter is something like a 12-18% increase in stiffness - I think I read that somewhere. SO keep it at or under 1.00" I'd say. They also sell 1.03" and I think 2 bigger sizes for real track autocross) However, I don't mean to say that the 1.00" bars are stiff or harsh - not at all - don't be afraid of the 1.00" bars! I just feel that maybe if I had .096" instead of 1.00" maybe I would have a bit less understeer. The bigger the front torsion bars and the bigger the front sway bar, the more understeer. (I have front and rear sway bar and quick ratio Firm Feel Idler arms along with subframe connectors and Torsion boxes at all 4 corners).

Oh, and definitely without a doubt IMMEDIATELY ditch those KYB's and put Bilsteins on all 4 corners (or QA1's if you can afford it - speaking from past experience on the KYB's and Bilsteins that are currently on my car). Change the shocks first to feel the difference, then do the T-bars. You won't believe the difference the shocks will make in feel.

.096" or 1.00" is my vote. I think you'll be happy with either. Firm Feel makes good T-bars and are excellent to deal with.

by the way - how do you like the Borgeson box? I've been dying to drive a car with one to compare to my Firm Feel Stage 2 (which I also like).

 

[66Satellite47]

I ran the stock T bars in my '65 Coronet. It was a 426 Street Wedge car. I took a lot of weight out of it. My 452" low deck motor went 10.50 @127 with those T bars. I'd guess that whatever bar you pick will work fine. That was in the mid "80's with iron heads ported by me. 90/10 shocks are needed.