Valvetrain clatter/noise

[Gunner1]

I think that varies from shop to shop. A shop like yours would most likely say .015 to .030. I use to work in a large production shop doing 80 to 100 motors a day. We used .030 as our limit. Then it got a new seat or a larger diameter valve. Easy to do a 1.94 to 2.02 on a SBC. Some motors the rocker to retainer clearance is tight if you sink the valve too much.

 

[PurpleBeeper]

Won't a bent pushrod/bad lifter have an effect
on compression?
All 8 at 5 revs showed 150 psi. Not so
much as a pounds' difference. Vacuum gauge
needle steady @15/650 rpm in gear.

Nope. A bent pushrod or a bad lifter won't prevent the valve from closing. Closed valve = good compression. The only thing that would drop your compression would be a bent valve, a bad valve seat seal, or worn out rings.

 

[1STMP]

An update;
The new pushrods came in today.
I'm going to disassemble the lifters on
the cylinders that had the bent rods
and look for any debris. Will also check
for any that are sticking.
I'll set up the dial indicator on the lobes,
but I don't suspect a problem here as
all of the lifter bases are in good shape
with zero signs of wear and the cam lobes
all have a good wear pattern.
I placed the worst bent rod under a rocker
with the shaft bolted down. Preload measured
.014. Still under load but I suspect not
enough.
I'm almost even more convinced these
pushrods were installed in a pre-bent state.
When the new rods are in I'll be be checking
for coil bind, and retainer to guide clearance.
Thanks all for your input. It's been a big help.

 

[1STMP]

First lifter disassembled. Very fine verticle
scratches (almost like a burnish), with a
couple very small random scratches. Can't
feel them with a fingernail. Plunger,
and spring, both look good. I can't get the disc
to drop out. You can see it in the third pick.
It's almost like it's captured by the bottom
portion of the plunger, and I don't want to
destroy the lifter trying to get it out.
There was a very fine small amount of debris
in the bottom of the lifter barrel.
Should these be replaced? I realize the burnish
marks are evidence the lifter was not rotating
at initial start, but maybe started to rotate
once the oil got to it and the lifter pumped
up.. the face is pristine, bright mirror, with
zero scratches.

 

[Gunner1]

Did you keep track of them when you pulled them apart? They have to go back on the same lobe or you need to replace them. Normal fire up will always send some debris thru the system. It hides in the crooks and crannies of the oil passages.

 

[1STMP]

Did you keep track of them when you pulled them apart? They have to go back on the same lobe or you need to replace them. Normal fire up will always send some debris thru the system. It hides in the crooks and crannies of the oil passages.

Just put this one on the bench, Gunner.
The rest are in their bores. Gonna do them
one at a time. Do you think this and others
in the same condition will be OK to use?
Really do appreciate your input.

 

[Geoff 2]

The valve on the bottom of the piston will come off by using a knife blade under the cap; be careful, there is a small spring under there with a ball or flat washer.

 

[1STMP]

The valve on the bottom of the piston will come off by using a knife blade under the cap; be careful, there is a small spring under there with a ball or flat washer.

Thanks, Geoff 2,
Was able to take it out. Soaking in kerosene
works well. There was no debris under the cap.

 

[Gunner1]

Sounds like you're doing everything right. Hope this all works out for you.

 

[1STMP]

Decided to err on the side of caution. I ordered
a new set of lifters today. The verticle
scratches have me a little worried and I don't
want to be doing this again due to lifter
failure.
I do have a question, though.
When I check to see if the lifters are spinning,
Is that with the rocker shafts and pushrods
installed, and if so, won't that wipe the lube
off the cam lobes?

 

[Gunner1]

You can load the lifters and spin the crank with the starter motor. Just us something like Moly lube on the lifter face. Depending on MFG there is usually only 1 to 2 degrees of taper on the cam face. That works with the crown on the lifter face to rotate the lifter. It usually has needed some spring pressure to rotate when I had a thick lube on the face. But if you can rotate the lifter freely in the bore then it usually will be just fine. I used a magnet to check mine. Just a small pocket one on the edge of the lifter where the plunger fits will have enough pull to move a free lifter.

 

[Gunner1]

By the way. The excess lube wipes off the lobes the first time you spin the motor with the springs hooked up. There will still be plenty there for firing up the motor to get the splash oiling going.

 

[1STMP]

On going.
The TRW lifters (now Speed Pro) in this
engine are 27 years old from time of install.
The clips that hold the plunger in the lifter
body are a different type and are no longer
available, and seem to be a one time use
as just about all we tried to remove for
disassembly have been broken. So....
new lifters went in.
There was a small amount of a gooey
wet clay kinda stuff in the bottom of
the lifters that were associated with the
loose rockers and bent pushrods. All others
were clean. Hoping this stuff didn't make it
to the internals, we pulled the oil pan. It
is clean with a very minimal amount of
normal break in material (nothing like
the goo found in the lifters). Only 6 of the
lifters had the gunk in them, and those 6
had bent pushrods. We cut the break in
oil filter open and it is clean except for
the same stuff found in the oil pan.
Preload is good at .050 as an average
with the new pushrods installed.
All rockers are tight now, with no freeplay
in the rockers. We'll finish assembly
tomorrow and run it thru another break in
period to seat the new lifters.
I have no idea what the goo is, and why it
was found in only 6 of the lifters.

 

[Wietse]

Looks like you are finding all sources of the problems you had.
Maybe these 6 lifters are old(er) reused ones compared to the rest.
As you already suspected the builder scraped stuff together to get the engine complete so he likely did not bother getting 16 new lifters.

 

[PRHeads]

Sounds like you should be good to go now

How about a pic of those odd lifter plunger retaining clips.

 

[Orig69]

First lifter disassembled. Very fine verticle
scratches (almost like a burnish), with a
couple very small random scratches. Can't
feel them with a fingernail. Plunger,
and spring, both look good. I can't get the disc
to drop out. You can see it in the third pick.
It's almost like it's captured by the bottom
portion of the plunger, and I don't want to
destroy the lifter trying to get it out.
There was a very fine small amount of debris
in the bottom of the lifter barrel.
Should these be replaced? I realize the burnish
marks are evidence the lifter was not rotating
at initial start, but maybe started to rotate
once the oil got to it and the lifter pumped
up.. the face is pristine, bright mirror, with
zero scratches.View attachment 1266975 View attachment 1266976 View attachment 1266977

Is it just me or is the last picture of the lifter in this post not look right.
attachment 1266977

 

[1STMP]

Sounds like you should be good to go now

How about a pic of those odd lifter plunger retaining clips.

Can't see it to well, but the retainer is broken
across where the flats are.

 

[1STMP]

Is it just me or is the last picture of the lifter in this post not look right.
attachment 1266977

The plungers all looked similar as far as wear
goes.

 

[PRHeads]

I suspected that’s what you had.
Those are designed to preload the plunger down about .025-.030, and then you would run basically “0” preload beyond that.
They are supposed to be used with an adjustable valvetrain.

I don’t think any other lifter “manufacturers” uses those besides Hylift Johnson.
They are denoted by an “R” suffix in the part number(with the Hylift Johnson numbering system).

And yes...... those retainers are basically one use only.
They can be replaced with the std wire clips or even True-arc style snap rings, but you lose the extra preload if you do that.

 

[1STMP]

I suspected that’s what you had.
Those are designed to preload the plunger down about .025-.030, and then you would run basically “0” preload beyond that.
They are supposed to be used with an adjustable valvetrain.

I don’t think any other lifter “manufacturers” uses those besides Hylift Johnson.
They are denoted by an “R” suffix in the part number(with the Hylift Johnson numbering system).

And yes...... those retainers are basically one use only.
They can be replaced with the std wire clips or even True-arc style snap rings, but you lose the extra preload if you do that.

View attachment 1271014

The rockers in the engine are non-adjustable.
Would using these have caused pushrod
problems? If using a 9.317 pushrod, 1.5 ratio
rockers, .480 lobe on the cam.?
Just guessing here, but it looks to me that
the preload would have been past the 'normal'
range.
With the new pushrods and lifters in, there
is no coil bind and no retainer to guide
interference at max lift.